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Mark Allred wrote:

Hi Mark,
in all the video I have of Hogan (about 60 various clips) there is a common theme running all the way through them which cannot be overlooked or easily explained away. The hands get to the top and the right hand bends backwards and the right elbow heads down just slightly infront of his right hip. The wrist does not move from that bent back position and the elbow does not move from his hip until he has turned to the left. When he has turned to a position that the hands can simply release through the ball and the bend comes out of that right wrist.

So if you have your right hand bent backwards, your right elbow into your body the only way you can move the club without releasing this position is to turn the hips. Hogan himself described this motion both in his book and his explanation video.

If you can get into this position in the above image, as you turn the momentum of the club head is increasing rapidly, the right elbow is moving through such a tight motion that similar to a cog in the centre of wheel turning much slower than the wheel rim which moves rapidly in comparrison.
You wouldn't need to do much with your hand's except maintain a very forcefull hold on the handle to keep the elbow moving in a very tight circle (the circle that is prescribed by the hips turning left). Once the clubhead has built up sufficient momentum it will force you to release left. If you put your right wrist and elbow in the same position each time, keep a consistant rythm and speed in your hip turn. The club head will reach a consistant speed and release in the same position each time.

When you swing a driver at full speed the only thing you can do with your hands is hold on, trying to manipulate your hands while holding onto an object moving at a high velocity is asking for a disaster to happen.

When I traced Hogan's club and arm movement, the butt of the club and hands are moving in such a perfect and constant distance from the body the only way this is possible is because the hinge or fulcrum is stable. This stability is the elbow into the body.

My view is Hogan literally locked his hands out of the movement until it was time that the clubhead could not be held back anymore and therefore "self releases". He say's it in Five Lessons when he describes the order of movement in the downswing.

By the time Hogan needed to cure his hook, he had all the power he needed. He wanted to build a swing that would not brake down in competition. He removed every small movement that could cause timing issues. What better way than to create a totally stable fulcrum rotate the body and let momentum release the club.

Until someone can hit a ball showing the super smooth and consistant hand's and elbow position that make's this video stand out we will never know.

I cant argue with the man himself
Parks

i believe it can be easily explained if i understand what you are talking about correctly. "laying off the club" is what its called. at the top of the backswing he cocks his left wrist aka the secret described in Life magazine. problem is you have to straighten it back on the downswing because if you dont and if you keep it like that to the impact you gonna hit a slice because it does open up the clubface significantly. so you have to lay it back and thats what he does. the best way to experience that is to get to the top of your backswing, left wrist fully cocked, then ask somebody to hold the clubshaft and pull the club down from behind, slightly but with force. thats what Hogan did to John Schlee to explain it to him, allegedly.
parks wrote:
in all the video I have of Hogan (about 60 various clips) there is a common theme running all the way through them which cannot be overlooked or easily explained away. The hands get to the top and the right hand bends backwards and the right elbow heads down just slightly infront of his right hip. The wrist does not move from that bent back position and the elbow does not move from his hip until he has turned to the left. When he has turned to a position that the hands can simply release through the ball and the bend comes out of that right wrist.
Parks[/quote]

anton wrote:
[/quote]

Hi Anton,
I put in the "can't be easily explained away", as myself and Mark have been debating the importance of the hip's or hands in Hogan's swing. I'm all hips and Mark is all hand's. I didn't want to simply term it laying off as I'm focusing on when the right hand get's into the 1st move down position, it appears to me locked out and therefore cannot power the swing.

Parks

Parks, Anton, I believe both of your posts are valid as you percieve Hogans motion. I will try and post a video explaining my position and why the hands are the force that controls the swing.

Mark. 1lovegolf

i'm with you on this one. from my personal experience trying to apply any power with hands/arms early on is a recipe for disaster on this type of swing. the only thing its gonna do is ruin this fluid unwinding motion and transfer of power. or at least i have learned thats what it does for me. the hands/arms do apply alot of power but quite late in this motion, specifically the right arm/hand, its sorta kicks in, as you pointed out its in no position to apply any power, at certain cue. the left is pulling but the pull power comes from legs/hips->core unwinding. something about three right hands/arms comes up ?! it is possible to unwind very very fast thats why. otherwise its a transfer of power just like Hogan described in the book, and it starts from the hips/legs just like he says in that video.
parks wrote:
Hi Anton,
I put in the "can't be easily explained away", as myself and Mark have been debating the importance of the hip's or hands in Hogan's swing. I'm all hips and Mark is all hand's. I didn't want to simply term it laying off as I'm focusing on when the right hand get's into the 1st move down position, it appears to me locked out and therefore cannot power the swing.
Parks[/quote]

Maybe I can explain it this way.

The power and support come from the lower body and hips in order to rotate the torso.

The power then is tranfered and controlled by the left lat and deltoid muscle as the shoulders rotate.

Once the shaft resches parallel, the connected right side controls the transfer of energy towards the ball. This is done by both the forearms rotating the wrists, in concert with the hips and right rear foot.

Now the hands are active the whole time during this process.

Now the trick and secret is in the hands(fingers) , and this is where the speed or "accelerator move", as I like to call it comes into play. Hogans lag was stored, if you will, in the extention of the left 3 fingers at the topp and in the right hand position also. Now the clubhead haslagged behind the swing and the rotation of the body.

The slightest flexion of these fingers speed up the clubhead tremendiously. Also the hands are in a position to accelerate the clubhead further by using leverage on the shaft,along with further rotation and full body connection drivin by the last remaining movement of the right foot , specifically the ball and toe.


This is all timed by the extention and flexion of the fingers, in my opinion.

In my 20 years of swinging an ax, I can say that the power and rotation is below,and shoulders, the speed, timming and transfer of energy come from the hands. No pain, in balance and powerfull.

Thanks, Mark ,1lovegolf

Mark, i dont believe there is any trick or secret to it. if you unwind fast enough you wont need any "accelerator move" because you would get all the acceleration you need and can handle from that motion alone, in fact you wont be able to perform any accelerator moves once you cross a certain speed threshold relative to what your body can handle, you will be lucky if you can get enough power to turn that lag into the ball square. this is very evident in early Hogan footage ie before the car accident. and i did chop my share of firewood back in the day and honestly dont see any relevance except yeah its a swing too but comparing it to a golf swing is like comparing apples to oranges imho.
Mark Allred wrote:
Now the trick and secret is in the hands(fingers) , and this is where the speed or "accelerator move", as I like to call it comes into play. Hogans lag was stored, if you will, in the extention of the left 3 fingers at the topp and in the right hand position also. Now the clubhead haslagged behind the swing and the rotation of the body.
[/quote]

anton wrote:
[/quote]

Anton, my ax swinging is not chopping wood, what I am refering to is chopping a tree down or digging roots out with a maddux. These two videos are the exact same motion and one is, if I am not mistaken, with an ax,lol.





The accelerator move is there, other wise I would be at the mercy of simple body rotation and release. The grip is key also, if your grip is not firm, in the right places or placed on the club in order to swing the weight, this will not register or allow you to accelerate the clubhead as I do.

Good luck with your swing and never take someone elses word for it, me included, see for yourself. It is the only way to understand the your swing and own it!

mark, 1lovegolf

Mark Allred wrote:


i'll take that mercy instead just so there is no confusion. i'm not saying that certain move or rather action you describe is not there in *your* swing or you or anybody else is doing something wrong, i'm not in position to say anything like that anyway. all i'm saying that is not what Ben Hogan did. i understand your point about the axe now after watching your videos. in fact it illustrates what you were saying very well. your swing is down the line, it does not go left, it goes down the line and up. and i think that is why you need what you call "accelerator move" there. again, this is not how Hogan did it, if anything thats a completely opposite way to do it. not right or wrong way to do it just a different way to do it imho, i wanna stress that again. there is a good article to illustrate what i was talking about www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/golfSwingPhysics2.php



thanx Mark! thats pretty much what i'm trying to do. getting rid of existing muscle memory and trying to ingrain a new one is a bitch of a bunch tho. that is why i'm so fierce about hands/arms hitting action, this is one of the things i'm trying very hard to get rid of completely, the other one is excessive lateral motion.

I am respecful of anyones path and how they percieve the motion of a swing. I am trying to advance past conventional thoughts and methods to those of a practicle application of a proven swing.

Hogan had a swing inside of a swing as I have posted and blogged about. Your utube model is accurate, however, my model has three different transfers or colors.

1 shoulders to elbows

2 elbowes to forearm wrists

3 wrists to fingers to clubhead.

The whole swing is timed by the fingers and their flexion.

The entire swing will culminate into a, "full body connection", with one last rotation of the entire body and torque applied or drive by the right foot. Hogan did this all at the precice moment the ball and clubhead collided and then followed through naturally.

This is just how I perciece Hogans motion and intent and how I was able to build and own my own swing.

Mark 1lovegolf

My take on the action of the axe and the golf club swing is they need to be seperate types of swings.

The axe has a heavy head and an inflexible shaft when compared to a golf club.

If we swing a golf club like swinging an axe or a solid metal rod we are not taking advantage of the flex in the shaft.

If we attempt to accelerate the movement of the hands forward but keep the head lagging the club in effect we can think of it as trying to snap the shaft.

Swinging an axe or sledge hammer to me is different, I want to get the weight of the head as high as I can and allow it to float as my upwards momentum stops, when gravity starts I want to be out of it's way and then thrust downwards to add my own momentum to gravity.

With a modern driver the only way I see to increase it's clubhead mass is to attempt to "snap the shaft" Elk say's it's one of his swing thoughts. To snap the shaft there has to be a quick turnaround at the top of the swing. True Temper say golfers who bend the shaft the most use the most wrist snap.

Now if your stressing the shaft to the max of your ability you cannot have anything else but a vice like grip when the stresses are at their maximum. Any attempt to manipulate the fingers is loosing pressure on the grip.

If you start with a very light grip, your subconscius sensing the increase in pressure will tighten your grip, if you wanted to throw the club you have to train yourself to completely release your grip like a hammer thrower does (but that's another story).

Now saying all that it is only my opinion and it is only related to swinging a driver at fullforce.

Iron clubs that have a weighty head like a forged blade could be manipulated by performing a Piccolo move as Elk demonstrates in the video vault. Now the question is would you try to perform a Piccolo when trying to hit a 3 iron to your near max distance.

Cheers
Parks

parks wrote:


Parks, as you know, nothing really matters as much as what the person who is actually performing the move is thinking. Yourself or Elk may see something that I cannot see or relate to and vice versa. No problem.

Results are what matters. I am not trying to teach golf to anyone or tell them how to swing, nor am I trying to learn how someone else swings. I am merely sharing my way of thinking and listening to others as they do the same.

I have never seen Elks' Piccilo move, so I can't comment there.

I don't think anyone really gets the accelerator concept, as it does take powerfull forearms to actually take full advantage.

Furthermore, I am not sure you understand the difference between a vice grip,(throughout the whole swing), and a strategically firm grip which is actually more dynamic in regards to finger and hand pressure.

As I have mentioned before, my grip is an exact replica of a baseballl grip, this, unlike yours or anyone elses variations of conventional grips allow me to do more with the club. Why would I ever have a weak grip? That limits movement. Opposing thumbs are ment to oppose, not be on the shaft or smoothered by the palm, and the interlocking grip, why, there is no control. This is just my opinion as I see the swing motion and what I need(grip), in order to execute my swing, not someone elses.

I am sorry to come off as brash, it is my intent to see all swings a personal preference and that includes mine.

Thanks, Mark, 1lovegolf

Mark, i dont think its fair to say that nobody gets what you are trying to explain regarding your swing. people not getting it and not subscribing to it are two different things. i spent time reading what you have to say and watching your videos and i see how it works yet i clearly realize this is not something i personally wanna do or advocate for from my perspective. from the swing video you posted its clear that accelerator move of yours is essential to your swing. the reason is that if it wasnt there the power produced by that swing would be extremely weak because it doesnt take advantage of rotational power and that can be clearly seen at the imaginary impact position, imaginary since there is no ball in the video, you core stops rotating, your body is parallel to the target line, again imaginary, and you are accelerating the club with your arms/hands down the line and up. your core starts rotating again, past impact, in response to the power generated from your arms/hands. this is what i see. the reason that i personally dont subscribe to it is because i might have had a shot at this type of swing back in my ice hockey days and regular gym workouts. these days my arms are simply too weak to produce any reasonable power using this motion comparing to what my body can produce with little or no effort using rotational power. and i cannot use your accelerator move in rotational model to gain more power because its simply not gonna work there due to mechanics and physics involved as was explained earlier.
Mark Allred wrote:

Mark as you say,"Results are what matters"!

Mate I know you have been frustrated with people's uptake or undestanding of your swing theory. As others have done if you want to prove your theory then it's time to hit the course and start hitting fairways in regulation. Shooting low scores is a combination of the many skills in golf. Hitting fairways and greens in regulations or under reg is really all that needs to be done.

Good luck and keep plugging, 5 years ago after reading and veiwing everything on Hogan I could find I thought I had his swing nailed, unfortunatly the 5 volumes of notes I had written came to very little when I applied them to the course. The 5 volumes where not wasted as I still refer back, but I won't be producing "Park's guide to the Hogan swing" anytime soon

Anton, parks, I agree with and respect each and every persons viewpoint, as it relates to their abilities or preferences concerning their swing or that of someone else.

The golf swing, as is any swing motion, in my opinion, a very personal thing.

I will leave it at that for now. I will post some videos that are actually taped on a golf course as my voice in this matter in the future.

I respect the game of golf enough to know that all participants are due respect as a matter of course.

Good luck. Mark

From one observer to another , I believe Hogan, as I do , believed there is a swing or optimal swing motion defined by science or physics.

Some say there is no swing, however, it is easy to see.......well, Hogan said it first.

It is my belief that Hogan did not actively or consciously perform his swing motions as he explains them. It is my opinion that he observed himeslf while performing the optimal swing motion and accentuated these observations.

From there he modified every aspect of his motion, as well as clubs and footwear to allow him to execute this swing.

Once you believe there is a swing , you can begin to execute it. The first step is to view the swing as a 360 degree swing in which we execute about all 360 degrees of it.

Next we must decide what actually is being swung 360 degrees. It is my belief that the entire body rotates in a 360 degree circle. It is not necessary to explain how, but know that it does. A circular motion is the only real motion as defined science and physics. Now an object can travel in a parallel position(on line) in relation to another object, but know that both objects are travaling in a circle. This is where all power is generated from.

Having said that, the clubhead is the focus or weight that is being swung, since it is ultimately the object that strikes the ball.The legs rotate the hips which rotate the torso and so on out to the clubhead.

My point and sorry for the long post, is that we must observe the swing motion and how to swing the weight in order do effectively accelerate and deliver the clubhead to the ball.

It is my opinion that Hogan also believed this and was able to build his swing from this simple obsevation.

1lovegolf

Mark Allred wrote:


What if we looked at it in a slightly different but similar manner, before he swung the weight he had to create it, then he swung the weight while maintaining the weight.

Create - Maintain - Swing

Parks

Parks, I like that sequence.

Could you share what one could do to initiate or execute this first stage of creating the weight?

Mark

Mark Allred wrote:

Hi Mark,
my way would be:
Have the hands in a position to ensure that the clubhead is lagging the hand's on the backswing. Get to the top of the swing with the hands slightly ahead of the clubhead. As the club shaft accepts the weight have the hands dropping into a position to continually stress the shaft, by altering it's direction so it is different to the path it took on the way up. Keep the hands moving but without reducing the wrist angle until the clubhead out accelarates the movement of the hands.

Parks

parks wrote:


Parks,

That is an interesting way to describe it.

What would you say if I were to tell you that the backswing is of zero importance. What if I said you could start with the club on your shoulders and execute, with tempo, a better and smoother swing motion?

What if I told you that Hogan never released his right wrist?

1lovegolf

Would'nt suprise me at all Mark.

One of my driving range routines is to backswing to the top and stop. Practice my first move down a few times and then swing. I can still get the ball to about 90% of a full backswing.
Hogan has been supposedly quoted as saying that he didn't care how you got it to the top as long as you where in the slot at the top.

If you've seen the Hogan video
You can see him holding on to his wrist angle for dear life, the release comes after the impact. As absurd as it may seem, the acceleration of the clubhead may speed up his body turn

Parks

Mark Allred wrote:


PS:What would you say if I were to tell you that the backswing is of zero importance. What if I said you could start with the club on your shoulders and execute, with tempo, a better and smoother swing motion?

What if I told you that Hogan never released his right wrist?

1lovegolf

Mark, I went back to your other "hands" video the one that is 3:01 in duration and has no verbal communication. Any chance you could do that one over with some explanation as you go, just general thoughts as you demonstrate the different hand movements?

nextlevel wrote:


Thanks nextlevel for your interest. I will, as best I can, update and explain the first utube video I did in regards to Hogans Magical Hands. I will also include some new thoughts that I have blogged about,(Hogans One Handed Swing Theory), along with new observations as to how it all fits into the big picture of Hogans swing motion, in my opinion.


Thanks, Mark, 1lovegolf

Well if you said the backswing has zero importance in regard to producing power in the swing.

The important part of the backswing for me is the creation of rythm and tempo.

Parks