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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #62868

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Here is a video that was sent to me from a fellow Dirter. I will not make any comments or opinions of it, but thought some might enjoy it's content, as I did very much.
Thanks Michael!



Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #62914

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Grady,

I know just about everything I post circles around to natural, as you said, but it is for good reason.

IT WORKS!

In this video, Mr Dunn @ about 3;20 he demonstrates natural and use of association in a "golf" swing.



So, to each his own, but never underestimate the simplicity of "natural" motion, and use of association in developing and owning ones "golf" swing.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin ;)

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #62940

Hi Mark,
You wrote"Do you have the same routine for every club or what adjustments do you make as the clubs get longer?"
Short answer yes to a point then i need to make set up adjustments depending on the club or the intended shot (if not a regular full swing).

Yes part is:
feet together pointing at the ball (center of feet= center ball)
Forward tilt with an extended right arm ( butt of club center too)
I adjust my footing to feel the correct distance from the ball( butt of club to body gap is important to me)
I step left then right specifically to obtain desired ball position.
I grip the club specifically
Then i use a water ski position to align then tilt down to the ball settle,waggle, check target, waggle and go.
These actions blend obviously and many parts take time to naturalize and understand exactly why they work for me.
The longer the club the larger the Gap i allow between my body and the butt of the club and the larger my right step will be with little change to my hand position.
This gives the illusion my hands are farther forward towards the target, they are not. they do not move. i only take a larger step to the right.
I hope that makes sense ?.

Mark wrote"What I am working on is accelerating past impact, then releasing after and that is what my intent is and what I saw in the Hogan video, at least for me."

While i agree we should not see the ball and impact as a destination, i do question the merit of seeking accelerating after impact. No doubt that a properly swung club will see the clubhead continue to accelerate through impact towards its destination at the end of the swing arc. However i think the idea is as useful as trying to blow more air(flow rate of blow that is!) out when the candle has already been blown out. All that is important is we blow hard enough for the intensity of the flame.

Is this an attempt to gain more distance ?, no offense big guy i am trying to do you a favor here. You may be chasing the wind on that one.
I think Hogan speeds up to highlight at which point he pulls the trigger and fires the full freewheeling release. The visual aid he provides there lets everyone know where release in his swing is. So many can learn not to prematurely apply the punch. The power of a punch only lasts so long, it cannot be sustained beyond a certain limit, so when to let it go! is the thing i believe?.

regards
Stephen
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by stephen de pellette.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #62943

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
,

I know just about everything I post circles around to natural, as you said, but it is for good reason.

IT WORKS!

So, to each his own, but never underestimate the simplicity of "natural" motion, and use of association in developing and owning ones "golf" swing.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin ;)

Mark, 1lovegolf24


How do you reconcile your beliefs with Hogan's statement: "Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing."
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #62946

Andy C
Good question there, who do you think Hogan was targeting with that kind of statement? I would be inclined to say the novice as more experienced golfers more often than not have experienced that what they feel they are trying to do is not working. Thus to improve they have already ventured into all manner of unnatural movement types in an attempt to find progress. Who knows ?

Regards
Stephen
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #62950

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Ben Hogan:
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing."


IMO, our natural instinct is to hit with our hands(forearms).

To hit with my hands or to release the clubface is the furthest thing from MY current, ‘natural’ action.
Others see it differently.

Once we KNOW what it is Ben Hogan did and how
… Swing? Hit? Flip?
..we will know the opposite.

Stay the course Mark.
Since you have made it clear you aren’t going to buy a swing method
or accept without filtering through your own experience, there is no doubt it will be your Natural, swing, whatever it may become.
Here’s hoping you will own it.
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by linda richman.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #62987

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AndyC wrote:
1lovegolf24 wrote:
,

I know just about everything I post circles around to natural, as you said, but it is for good reason.

IT WORKS!

So, to each his own, but never underestimate the simplicity of "natural" motion, and use of association in developing and owning ones "golf" swing.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin ;)

Mark, 1lovegolf24


How do you reconcile your beliefs with Hogan's statement: "Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing."


Alvin,

I think Stephen made some good points, as to questioning who Hogan was speaking to.

I believe Bobby Shave mentions that we are equipt with all the natural abilities, but once we put a golf club in our hands we do not have a clue as to what to do.

Ernest Jones said "swing the club head".

Martin Ayers uses the natural swing motion of just swinging the club clock wise as his body naturally opposes it.

The point I am trying to make, and one I have been trying to convey for about 3 yrs, is that the "swing " motion is natural and we all can do it. However, the "golf" swing is not since we were not born with the extra weight in our hands.

However, why do we abandon our natural gift and ability to pivot, swing our arms, just because we have added weight to the hands? Makes no sense at all.

The real work, IMO, is to aim the swing, understand the demands and dynamics of the club so as to develop our natural swing into a golf swing that requires we hit something with that swing.

To me, that is why practice swings are beautiful and the real swing looks unnatural. The ball was in the wrong spot or they are not athletic enough to adjust of move the swing.

Anyway, I am sorry I don't know why Hogan made that statement, but for me, I wouldn't know where to begin if I did everything opposite of my natural swing motion? How could I walk, how could I throw a ball, swing a rock on a string, skip a stone, bat a fungo? All of which will come natural if giving the right intent. It's our gift and quite frankly, not an ultimate secret, at least not anymore. :)

Andy, I will give you this one thing, and it comes under the heading of understanding the implement.

"Swing down for the ball to go up. Swing L for the ball to go R and vice versa. Swing easier and the ball goes farther.

Thanks AndyC

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by 1lovegolf24.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #62999

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"Swing down for the ball to go up. Swing L for the ball to go R and vice versa. Swing easier and the ball goes farther.

Mark

Pull and turn.

Raise the butt of the club to have to clubface go’ down’ to the plane of the pitch.

And pull the butt of the club around our left side to track ‘down’ the line. The greats didn’t swing down, IMO.

ps
Ted Williams stated that, "The swing is not level, and it's not down". You need to get the bat traveling in the same plane as the pitch in order to increase your contact area.

The greats like Bobby Jones with counterbalanced, extra stiff, 200 gram hickory shafts, knew that a strike level with the ground was more consistent, allowing the degree of loft built in to the clubface determine flight of the ball. If one were designing golf shafts, wouldnt one make sure he knew this.

If we are buying and using golf shafts wouldnt it be smart to know this?
The alternative is swing down, with kick, droop and twist, different for every club, and every swing;
determining squareness of contact and flight of ball.
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by linda richman.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63001

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Linda,

I was trying to point out the notion that the majority of people swing up at the ball or their low point is behind the ball, thinking they need to swing up rather than letting the loft do the work.

I would, as you say, prefer the intent of slicing the bottom of the ball off and never touching the ground or just a rub of the green, and I believe yourself, Lane and Gerry have provided a solid blueprint to make it possible.

I have not givin up on all the help and info, but at my age, it takes time to process it in my own way. i will get there pretty much the same way I have all my life, by observing and learning from others, but "ultimately" being my own best teacher. ;)

Thanks Linda

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63004

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Linda,

Here is an example of what intent is in a swing and somewhat related to what I mentioned about rubbing the green and low point.

If you will notice , "low point" was maintained from the time it split the first piece of wood, which is about 14 inches and hits the same low point in the second piece of wood.

That is what I want or try to feel in a golf swing.

If we also observe the hands/ grip, they are both designed to swing the club from R to L, and not down. The weight of the head and CF from CP does that already.



I know this is not a golf swing, but "a swing is a swing" and as a servant to the swing, and the weight we are swinging, it is as close as your going to get.

You wouldn't see me going over the top and chopping off my L foot , and the R palm is up, would you. ?

My point here is that it takes maybe a week for someone to be able to do this, so why is it so difficult for someone to get the golf swing?

My contention is the same as before. Once we put a golf club in our hands, our natural swing abilities go out the window.

Furthermore, it takes time to get accustomed to the golf club and it's dynamics, especially with the design of the club, IMO.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts and what interests me as well as what i am working on to develop my golf swing.

Thanks Linda

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63005

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Mark wrote:
I was trying to point out the notion that the majority of people swing up at the ball or their low point is behind the ball, thinking they need to swing up rather than letting the loft do the work.

I would, as you say, prefer the intent of slicing the bottom of the ball off and never touching the ground or just a rub of the green, and I believe yourself, Lane and Gerry have provided a solid blueprint to make it possible.


Mark,
I think the majority of golfers attempt to hit down AT the ball, at least with irons.
Isnt that what most instruction says?

and the ball rolls up the face, within the 0.0006 second of impact, for backspin... crappola. Its simple, COR.

One thing Gerry Hogan posted a while back was to slide the sole of the golf club under the ball. He suggested to put a piece of colored tape on the sole of the driver and then slide that colored tape under the ball without scrapping the tape off on the ground.

If your focus is on the ball, you will 'hit'. Thats instinctive.

If your focus is to swing the sole of the golf club, you will do that.
Even a beginner 'swings' very smoothly without the ball as target.

Its like you say, the swinging motion is natural... until we focus on a target(ball) to 'hit'.

Other ways to do the same thing. eg post impact acceleration
We are applying 9G's of force on the ball and the ball is putting 9G's of force on the clubhead.
Newton: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Think the clubhead is accelerating after that collision? Of course not, but the focus on accelerating through the impact, takes our focus off of the ball.

Whatever works.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63009

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So Mark, was your focus on post impact acceleration?

or a spot on the first log to hit? ;)
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by linda richman.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63012

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linda richman wrote:
So Mark, was your focus on post impact acceleration?

or a spot on the first log to hit? ;)

Linda,

In this case, both. The path (intent ) was to go through the first one by accelerating to the second one.

Now in order to do this, you have to stay low and in line, depth wise for the duration until you hit the second one.

Now as far as all this acceleration talk, I believe it is just the feel of the weight, and not real speed. I am not actually trying to accelerate, just keep the momentum going, if that makes any sense.

So, you are correct regarding hitting down and acceleration post impact. :)

Thanks Linda

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63025

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The path (intent ) was to go through the first one by accelerating to the second one.


Mark,
'Staying low and in line... until you hit the second one' is an automatic effect of the intent?
or an additional conscious thing to do on a check list?
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63029

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linda richman wrote:
The path (intent ) was to go through the first one by accelerating to the second one.


Mark,
'Staying low and in line... until you hit the second one' is an automatic effect of the intent?
or an additional conscious thing to do on a check list?

Linda ,

Ok, you got me.

How about if I told you that I know that the force going into the first piece must stay in line,(parallel) with the wood or else it would not split. Any attempt to swing up during impact would fail.

At some point, in a swing motion, whether it is golf, an axe,baseball, there must be an intent to direct the force , (at least the length of the object) "straight" through it, IMO.

At some point we must deviate from the arc and let go.

Is that possible, just a feel or intent?

This is and something I have mentioned before, regarding the hands and Hogan's motion and intent.

Watch his R hand. First the motion of a circle,(cup) and then directing that cup,(circular motion) into the release(level).

Anyway, just my thoughts.



Thanks Linda

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63030

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just my thoughts.

Mark
that was all I was after, your thoughts as you were pulling the axe thru the two logs.

You might recall Lee Comeaux described his thoughts when he shot 62. He was thinking of the divots.. shape/size, if I recall correctly.
The DS of the axe swing isnt as fast as golf DS, but nevertheless how many thoughts do you have during that time? Sounds your could write a book.

Watch his R hand. First the motion of a circle,(cup) and then directing that cup,(circular motion) into the release(level).


Mark,
What release? Ben Hogan didnt have his right hand roll over his left hand.
IMO he didnt have a release of the clubface. Do you think he did?
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63034

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Linda,

You posted,
Mark,
What release? Ben Hogan didnt have his right hand roll over his left hand.
IMO he didnt have a release of the clubface. Do you think he did?

Linda,

Thanks for the question and one I have been thinking about a lot.

Yes, I believe Hogan released, but not with the action of rolling the hands or forearm rotation, but with a coordinated action of the body based on intent. He, I, IMO, naturally release the weight.

My thoughts on what must happen naturally.

"the arc and pull, in a swing motion must remain constant, but only by the L arm.", " the R side pulls into the body, then releases,(pushes) from the body away for the length of the object being hit". "from there, the R hand can release and follow the L arm and body around." It is almost as if the L and R hand are swinging on different arcs and for the briefest moment, on the same and then different again?

Watch Hogan's waggle, specifically the elbows. "Into the body, then away', "swing , release"

Of course, this is all observation of what has happened and feels, and cannot, be our intent during the swing.

Having said all that, i get your point and what you have boiled the swing down to.

I quote;

"pull the butt of the club, with the R palm up"

Simple, I like it.

However, as usual, their will be inquiring minds and explanations and facts that are needed by many, and who are willing to pay for them ;)

Thanks Linda

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63043

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Mark wrote:

Yes, I believe Hogan released, but not with the action of rolling the hands or forearm rotation, but with a coordinated action of the body based on intent.


I think most think of release as uncocking the wrists?

Is this close to what your thinking, Mark?

Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by linda richman.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63044

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linda richman wrote:
Mark wrote:

Yes, I believe Hogan released, but not with the action of rolling the hands or forearm rotation, but with a coordinated action of the body based on intent.


I think most think of release as uncocking the wrists?

Is this close to what your thinking, Mark?


Linda,

Yes, that is close. I like the motion forward/ around as part of a natural pivot. I like to think of it as moving the swing or swinging the swing. We swing the hands, as the hands swing the club?

Also, I never really thought of the release as the uncocking of the L wrist, since it will cock and uncock naturally without intent.

My definition of release is the weight from an arc, to a line, lasting the width, or length of the object being hit.

Is this a real feel, even possible or a foolish waste of intent and scientifically unsound?

Thanks Linda

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by 1lovegolf24.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63046

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Also, I never really thought of the release as the uncocking of the L wrist, since it will cock and uncock naturally without intent.

My definition of release is the weight from an arc, to a line, lasting the width, or length of the object being hit.

Mark

Admire your willingness to redefine commonly used terms, in your own terms, but you can appreciate it makes it difficult to follow at times.


the golf ball is less than 2 inches in diameter.
Do you really feel 'release' is over a 2 inch length at impact? I must misunderstand.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63052

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linda richman wrote:
Also, I never really thought of the release as the uncocking of the L wrist, since it will cock and uncock naturally without intent.

My definition of release is the weight from an arc, to a line, lasting the width, or length of the object being hit.

Mark

Admire your willingness to redefine commonly used terms, in your own terms, but you can appreciate it makes it difficult to follow at times.


the golf ball is less than 2 inches in diameter.
Do you really feel 'release' is over a 2 inch length at impact? I must misunderstand.

Linda,

Most of those terms were created for manufactured motions and conscious efforts, rather than observations of what happens as we observe natural motion based on intent. IMO, of course.

Intent, our one conscious thought we are allowed, is key to the whole chain reaction. We cannot create the motion or pieces consciously during the swing and therefore the terms used to describe them are useless.

Action, chain reaction. One has intent, the other can only be observed after the fact. If the reaction is flawed, we cannot fix it using terms and definitions, or perfecting the effects, but have to change the intent.

Fortunately we are only talking about the simple swing motion, and why I believe what I do.

The more we have to think about, the more we have to worry about. Doubt is paralyzing, as is fear.

Just my thoughts

Thanks Linda

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63056

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The more we have to think about, the more we have to worry about. Doubt is paralyzing, as is fear.

Mark,

In this regard, here is a suggestion given to me by Gerry Hogan:

pick a day or two, when you set out on the course to confront every challenge head on... no backing off.

Aim at every obstacle, every hazard the designer put out there and curve the ball away from it.

Does wonders for your confidence when you pull it off and learning is quick when you dont.
Its a game, have fun ....and dont give in to those fears we normally try to avoid.

I think it makes us better in more than one way.
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63068

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Linda,

Heading out today with the intent to head towards the hazards and curve the ball away as you suggested.

The only thing I will control is my choice.

No fear, no doubt.

Just learning and lovin golf.

Thanks Linda,

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63074

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Grady posted,

"Jim,
It is one of the great instruction books of all time, and an inspiration for this thread because of its focus n what the golfer feels." :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Grady, are you serious?

You left this thread because you were tired of feel, natural , just swing the weight and all the simplicity of what Lane Cy, offered.

Funny how 2 of them were banned for repeating what they believed in,

Your thread is the poster child for technical golf and there is nothing wrong with that, but please, don't pretend you are all about the feel!

Had to get that off my chest. No hard" feelings" :laugh:

You do have a nice golf swing though, even though it is techically manufactured. To each his own.lol

Good Luck and Keep Diggin

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 1 month ago #63081

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Mark

Not sure if I can be any help..but after 2 seasons I finally have a go to ball flight. I'm sticking with a fade..either a low pull fade or a higher straight ball fade into a tight right pin. Used to play this shot for over 15 years, but lost all consistent ball flights by experimenting and trying this and that. I know it sounds basic, but the true way to get better and enjoy this game is to know which way you miss it..and play that as one of your strengths.

As far as books,,,ben hogans "power golf" is really amayzing....I think better than 5 lessons...IMO.

Just my 2 cents
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