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Mark
One 'position to hit' doesn't equate to Hogan seeing the swing as a series of positions...or thinking that it should be learned position by position.
You said..

I would say that you're better off thinking about relationships that generate leverage...which is not the same at all as 'positions'.
you also said..

Oh is that all it is? So what are you saying? That what I talk about is a triviality...that it's just natural?
Like I have said, I'm not trying to make anything up. I think it's simple too. But if you don't explain WHY it's simple...and you just waft on making blanket statements...you wind up saying a whole lot of.... not a whole lot.

As to the rest...I think you should re-read Festus' last post...I can't say it any better than that.

@BHSP
Straight at you...handle directly away from sweetspot...from all of those angles...you figure out what 'position' that puts you in. For me...it put's the SWING in MOTION...

He talks about positions with regards to why he is considered the best ball striker ever. About 3;55 he starts

Mark,
Thanks for the video.

I like 4:03: Right palm up and 'breakin wind over the left heel'

Must be where the 'old fart' ball cap originated.

Mark,

Thanks for the vid ... priceless footage of a legend!

Moe does say, "I always hit my positions". However, the only positions he mentions, albeit very briefly and only in a passing manner, are address and finish. He mostly talks about MOTIONS. Thus, I would interpret Moe's "position" statement in the same way that Martin interprets Mr. H's "position to hit comment".

Cheers,

mh

"I like 4:03: Right palm up and 'breakin wind over the left heel'"

A couple of relationships that are easy to keep in mind...and have nothing to do with 'when' in terms of position. Good stuff from Moe. You have to build your own relationships.

"I like 4:03: Right palm up and 'breakin wind over the left heel'"

A couple of relationships that are easy to keep in mind...and have nothing to do with 'when' in terms of position.

How: to get into the SLOT
Why DS takes less than 2/10 second
Where: before the DS. DS takes less than 2/10 second

3 out of 4 aint bad.

Im going to point his out again,since no one took it seiously,whats the differences between Moe norman and Hogan,who everyone here agrees were the best ballstrikers,grip,setup,posture,look folks those things dictate how you swing so much,more than you can understand,look at Moe,look at hogan,two completly different grips and set up.why was that,they figured out how to grip set up to swing the way their body,not someone elses body but what their body wanted to do,i believe yall are overlooking the significance of this,try changing your grip your posture ball position weight distribution and swing without thinking,and you will see how dramitically this changes your swing,without drills or la bunch of effort going into positions.

I think they swung the club almost the same....depends how you look at a swing. Some people define a swing by it's shape...it's positions. Plus, the other thing to remember is that older Moe was nothing like younger Moe and he radically changed his set up for commercial reasons...because he could....he was good enough to know what that change in set up meant to him. In the final analysis it didn't change his dynamic motion much at all.

moehogan wrote:


Good post!

Martin Ayers wrote:
Much at all?So it changed his dynamic motion some. Not trying to be right or argumentative,but there it is,"didnt change his dynamic motion much at all"My point is if you think they swung the same,Why such different set ups,In Moes case i bet he tried the convetional and it didnt work for him,so he tinkered with his grip setup until he produced the swing he wanted.I guessing what you are saying is knowing how you want to swing will naturally produce the right setup and grip,and im saying thats not necessarrily so.Which comes first,the chicken or the egg,I dont know for certain,could Hogan have produced his swing with Moes grip setup,a similar version I think,but not the optimal version I bet.and of course i will defer to the expert on this,you being far more knowledgble than I.

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Thanks Mark. A great video of Moe Norman.

As we all know, the only position that counts is the impact. And there are "infinite" ways to get to impact.
If you compare the backswing of great ball strikers and players in terms of positions, they have absolutely nothing in common!

The new SITD "sequence" video is about order of the movement, not positions.

The key to a good impact position is the transition sequence. On the top, the hands should "wait" for the clubhead to fall (i.e. "free ride") and/or the feet/legs get in position to hit (i.e. opening the hip, weight on left, etc.).

BTW, at about 3:51 Moe gives away the swing secret: "Here is a game of rhythm!"

I suppose Hogan did not really advocate fulfilling (static) positions during the swing. Perhaps as Cy mentioned, the only position that ultimately counts is impact.

alan wrote:


Alan, Moe achieved his legendary ballstriking status with a far more "conventional" swing. This is the swing he used to set all his records, shoot 59 multiple times, etc.



That's not to say that he couldn't do those things later in life.

When Martin says it didn't change anything dynamically, he's talking about where the pressures are felt at what time during the swing. What moves when...that kind of thing. Nothing to do with the look of it.

Timothy,Martin said didnt change his dynamics much,much,much,that would indicate some change in dynamics.My point is I believe grip setup,influences dynamics greatly,what position you put yr body in has a great influence on what your body is going to do

Lets examine the bent arm folks,Calvin peete,Lee westwood,were and are they some of the straightest hitters ever despite bent arm or because of bent arm, I play with a guy who broke his arm so badly its permanently bent half way between wrist and elbow,he has 6 holes in one,always dead straight

The only differences in that Moe swing and later swings I see,is later wider stance,and of course when he was older he didnt take it as far back as when he was younger

Every great ballstriker in the history of the game used very similar macroscale patterns. It is because physics and anatomy brings correct solutions by themselves.
Hogan and (younger) Moe were VERY SIMILAR in lots of aspects. Martin and Tim are completely right.

Coming to this thread to wish Happy Easter for everyone in the SiTD !

Cheers

See Byron Nelson in young Moe!

.

"Put it this way, positions support motion.

Mark, 1lovegolf24"


Put it this way, structure supports motion. IMO.

Much like Festus, I like to exagerate things to put them in proper perspective. If the human race had somehow evolved without the sense of sight- yet still invented the game of golf- what positions would the best golfers hit during the swing motion? My point is that positions in the golf swing only exist because we can observe them. Take away the ability to observe and we have no positions...yet the golf swing still exists.

Try to hit a wedge with your left arm only. Now hit whatever positions you would like and let me know if you make contact, let alone clip the ball nicely. The only way you can hit a flush shot with the left arm only is to let the club swing on it's own. You do this by having an initial trigger to create inertia, then the club will swing on it's own. If it does not, your tool is not balanced properly in your left hand.

Lazar Milosavlevski wrote:


Hi Milosavlesk,

Yes, structures support motion, and structures are built by positions, and or geometry of it's parts..

Hogan advocates the "Positioning of the elbows" , in five Lessons , throughout the entire swing to execute his motion. This is a position. Static or otherwise.

As I said before, positions support motion. This is not just a "Static" position , since it is advised to dynamically hold it throughout the swing.

My point is, whether it is static or dynamic, positions are key points of reference, in the swing motion, IMO, and in my experience that works for me, and proven to produce results.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Bradley Hughes wrote:

Great comparison...Hogan hits it more on his right side...Moe more on his left. Swing the club pretty much the same way...just hit from a different spot. Which I think has to do with where they see the target in relation to them.

Moe said he never left the line, Hogan said he aimed the pane to the right. They both did what they said they did.

Dariusz Jedrzejewski wrote:
Hi Darius,I think Tim misunderstood what Im saying,also Martin to extent,Im not saying Hogan And Moes Swing are not similar,Im saying there setup grip is differant,Im pointing out best I can how big an inluence setup,{stance,ball position,weight distribution}grip how you let your arms hang,elbow position,,tightness in the arms influences how each individuals body will swing the club,can we agree Than Moes and Hogans setups and grips were very different

Martin Ayers wrote:
any one notice in these pics how Hogans upper arms are glued to his torso,Moes are not,Hogan created this glueing at address

Everyone focusing on how they swung,im saying they achieved the swings differently,different thought,pressures established with grip and setup.How come Bradley Hughes advocates flatter lie angles,because he believes this will promote you swinging more like you should around not up and down,which will ultimetly produce you gripping it differently and setting up differently,what im saying is you will change yr swing faster and more effectively just by experimenting with different grips posture setup than you ever will by trying different backswings,downswings,positions,theory,very hard to control a motion in motion,if not impossible