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Thank's for the clip, I watched that 1 when the initially put it out.

As your a BH fan, here is a favourite clip, about the clearest image I've ever seen.

DaveJaVu wrote:



DJV,

Thanks for the clip. Amazing . Looks like one big square, with one corner missing at the topp. 3 -90 degree angles.


Hmmmmmmm?

Mark, 1lovegolf24

DJV,

BTW, and wrt to rist cocking....when and where, that is another apsect of the swing I believe will happpen automatically, without thought and per each individuals tempo.

About the only thing I see in Hogan's swing, and what I believe to be a natural motion, just as wrist cocking is, is his instinctive move back to the ball, before his BS is complete. This tempo decides when the wrist will cock, and uncock, or release. No real thought required as to when or where, IMO.

This is the same feel and motion executed when we bat a fungo.

It is just one less thing I have to worry about.

Some believe the swing is one continuos motion. If so, it must be one continous thought. IMO, that is ball flight, and intensity.

All the technical stuff being discussed elsewhwere got me no where.The more I picture the ball flight and the distance, the more things fall into place.

Get the grip right, then just swing the weight.


I am not sure how you built your swing, other than the paths you've traveled, but at the core or everyones swing, there is a belief of what works, whether it be endless hours spent on mechanics and positions and technical descriptions and visual interpetations, or whether it is the grip and use of natural motion and feel, based on simple things we do everyday.

Either way, I get the feeling Hogan did both. I think he left no stone unturned and no path untraveled. Simply amazing.

BTW, who influenced you the most?

Good Luck my friend

Mark, 1lovegolf24

In my opinion, one of these guys are right, maybe two, but one is cause and the other is effect



I never realized the dynamics of what Hogan may have been doing for sure, until a certain part of my L and R forearms began to ache so much, I could barely lift them to my face or grab my golf bag out from the truck.

Consciously, I was doing nothing with the forearms, but the grip changed everything.

I will never know for 100% forsure if this was Hogan's intent was, but golf seems so much simpler.

Thanks DJV

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


I look at at everything as cause an effect, if I see something I like, I then deconstruct whatever happened before. I always do an individual biomechanical survey of the person. Biomec is very individual, each person is different, even in identical twins.

The top position and wrist cock was the 1st thing I looked for and the last thing I found.

Influences: Moe Norman for the hip action and an old pro who told me, BH had told him "To do the same thing each time , you have to hit the top slot no matter what your trying to do".


Then it was working out how I worked as an individual, trail and error and then Error fix and trail.

Get it right and all you have to do is setup with the correct intention, make sure your 1st move is correct and then just let your reactions take care of the rest.

If you have worked it out correctly then you have set off a series of ongoing reactions to fire 1 after another. Just like knocking down domino's. Now just like working out those massive Domino display's it takes patience and a little engineering. But there are set principles and sequences which your body will adhear to, you just have to work out A+B =

Beleif is everything, 1 slight chink in the armour and you can fall of the horse.

DJV

I like the domino analogy.

Once I start my swing, and since I really try to limit my thoughts, other than ball flight and tempo,(intensity), there isn't much I can do about the outcome, wrt to mechanics and the outcome.

I do have to sometimes remind myself, and unfortunately it is during the swing, to pivot and follow through. I am trying to work that particular swing thought into the tempo during practice, since the tempo is the cause of the dynamics and required mechanics, IMO.

Beleif and faith. No wonder golf is so hard, or easy?

Thanks again

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


That all's sound very familiar and good,

as for the follow through if you have a recognisable "tipping point" the place where your weight needs to be, for you to be pulled into the follow through. Try getting to that point before striking the ball,

i always have the Left leg ready and recieving weight and my Right foot is always rolling inwards to some degree. For the Downswing to begin there is a balance point between the Right foot being in the position where it is ready to push hard, but it is also anchored enough so the shoulders have support to make a strong turn down and through.

Because the right foot is acting like as a moving support structure,the shoulder's push the right foot into rolling more. So the right foot is like a surfer on the crest of a wave, there is a duel role, of support and continous leftwards momentum.

This way it's impossible to stall the motion and not be catapulted into the follow through. The initial intention of how much force will be put into the downswing stipulates how fast all this will happen. This then all leads back to the setup, have the weight correct in the feet and especially through the 1st few inches of the backswing and there is no need to time the motion "as the surfer is always on the crest of the wave"

DJV,

Thanks for the post.

You wrote,

"i always have the Left leg ready and recieving weight and my Right foot is always rolling inwards to some degree. For the Downswing to begin there is a balance point between the Right foot being in the position where it is ready to push hard, but it is also anchored enough so the shoulders have support to make a strong turn down and through."


DJV,

You must have read my mind. Today, I just got back from practicing that very same feel of the left leg.

I was working on it from a visual point of view, (what does the ball look like), or a point in which the head does not feel the forward and latteral motion and becomes stable,or rotational in feel, as the left foot recieves weight and the right side pushes through and hits.

I like that term, "tipping point"

I try to remember exactly that point at address, wrt, to the above, and arrive back there at impact, but never go beyond that point.

Good stuff DJV. Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

When watching Hogan is real time, I just can't get over how much he pulled withtthe left side. There is no way the right shoulder could handle this amount of pressure, or the R elbow for that matter. I know i couldn't.

!

I have been working on moving off the ball , then big shoulder turn and move back to the ball.

Shoulder rotation along with lateral motion feels natural and brings the hand and arms into a position to hit, as Hogan prescribes.

This gives the necessary momentum, to a pitch shot, as some have described Hogan's motion

From there is , the swing is executed the same way Hogan executes his pitch shot. Hands reach thighs, then pivot the rest of the way through release and impact.

Here is another person you all might know who appears to move off the ball in the BS, but ultimately, and with precision, finds his way back to the ball. Hmmmmmm.



DJV,

You might like what Maves has to say about the left recieving and resiting the the weight anfd R side, respectively.

This motion feels lateral in the BS and DS but will not work without rotation.

That is anothe reason i just can't get over Hogan's head motion. What did he know that we didn't. Alot of players used it. Nicklaus for one, but few offered any inside info or reason why it works?

Here is a closer look at the head and very odd motion.I believe it gave Hogan the feel of moving off the ball and back to it.



It just feels natural to move away from something and build momentum back into it, before striking something or throwing something.

Maybe this was Hogan's way of doing it visually, without the big body motion.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

"That is anothe reason i just can't get over Hogan's head motion. What did he know that we didn't. Alot of players used it. Nicklaus for one, but few offered any inside info or reason why it works?"

Well I can't tell you why they did it, but I can tell you why I do it.

Like you wrote above about moving your weight off the ball and then back to it.

If you setup absolutely square to the ball with say a 7 iron in the middle of your stance. There is a nice straight line from the top of your head, running down through the centre of your face continuing on down your breastbone, stomach etc. You have split your body in half, left on the left side of the ball and right on the right side. The weight would be set directly over the centre of the ball, like your leaning forwards on top of it.

Now Without shifting your weight laterally to the Right, make a small shoulder turn so the club moves 20 inches to the right. Cock your wrist's and look at the path you have back to the ball. Is that the path your looking for in your ideal swing?

Then feel where your weight is, if you made the small turn without shifting your weight lateral right it should be still fairly central, but sitting a little more into the heels and buttocks. Now if you where going at the ball from this position, with the necessary upper body turn to the left Without flipping the hands, keep the lag. Where would your weight be at impact? Would it be in the correct position? Would it be too far through causing your head to move left of the ball?

The answer for myself when I looked at it this way, was that I was too far through the ball. So at setup I turn my head to the right and then lean forwards applying downwards pressure. This causes the top of my spine to orient (turn) itself slight behind the ball. This gives me my pre impact path back to the ball, with my weight pushing down behind the ball as my upper rotates through.

Easiest way to feel it is to do the above exercise again, but turn the head and orient the spine to point at that 8 inch position. The trick is to keep the shoulder's square and just turn the head and lean a little. There is enough rotational flexibility in the top of the spine to accommodate this safely.

In comparison with the square setup, where do you think your head and the weight will be at impact this time? Better or Worse?

You may get the feeling of what I'm talking about from the above, not saying it would work for all, as everyone is different. This is just what worked for me.

Another point about pre rotating the head this way is that when the downswing happens the head will rotate back in the opposite direction. The head doesn't lift up, it just follows the shoulders path (under and through).

PS the eyes don't have to look in the direction the head is turned

DJV,

Thanks for the post.

I believe Moe Norman also achieved a preset impact position, w/ spine orientation behind the ball at address, along with some head motion as well.

Along with Maves's , as well as your explanation and what works for you both, I believe we all search for a natural feel of momentum towards the ball and have various ideas as to how to preset these feels at address, depending on what works for us.

Along with the head motion and feel of moving lateral off the ball, I have been experimenting with the weight going to the R heel more, toes up, and then to the insides of the feet and eventually the ball of the R foot. Not sure if that is what you felt?

As you mentioned earlier, I do feel a pressure down, but from the left shoulder and it's rotation. The harder I rotate, the faster I know the hands will be comming through. From there, the left side, and hip...........well, that part I am suppose to keep a Secret , but you get the point.

I have to say, I like how you think. You seem to have a very problem solving mind set. Reverse engeneering, cause and effect, experimentation and visualization, etc.

It is good to hear someone speak from there own experiences and how they have come up with what works for them. I am not sure who your influences were, or favorite golfer/teachers were, but thanks just the same.

What's your take on rythym and tempo?


Mark, 1lovegolf24

Rhythm and Tempo is a difficult 1 to explain.

All I can say is that as long as I make the 1st few inches of the backswing correctly, then R&T take care of themselves. It all has to do with the "surfer always being on the edge of the wave". If I'm playing poorly and someone says "Your timing looks off" I DON'T start practicing, 123 123 123. I go straight to the setup and initial takeaway.

Acceleration is something I concentrated more on, I want to accelerate from the top of the downswing all the way through. Then I can change how hard I want to hit the ball just by changing my intention.

As for Moe, practicing his swing taught me a lot about all we have discussed above.

I never found a teacher who could "Teach Me about Me, So I had to Teach Myself", "They could always teach me about Themselves, Even if they didn't truly understand what they where doing".

DaveJaVu wrote:



DJV,

I can accept that.

For me, it is something I never gave much thought, wrt to tempo. With the golf club being so light, it is hard to determine what works best, but I am always trying to impart as much energy, efficiently into the ball.

Rhythm seems to be something that feels more natural to figure out and I try to increase tempo to the fastest I can, as long as the dynamics are not disrupted or I feel the weight getting away from me and feel the hands comming into the equation too much. Kinda like the rhythm of a train accelerating to the point of it flying off the trac.

WRT, the takeaway, as you mentioned, very important. The moment of thruth.

I have heard of many, many theories on how to start the swing, as many out there have. Some I have tried and some I have not. I believe that is another aspect of the swing that is extremely important , but something we all do differently and must figure out for ourselves.

What seems to work for me, and based on my experience in swinging anything, is the hand nearest the body swings the club back or applies/feels the most pressure on the shaft. If we look at Hogans L wrist, we see that it is bent as if it is already moving the club back.

Having said that, we can watch Hogan's L hand through the entire swing and it executes the same motion as a L handed tennis player making a back hand swing, cupped wrist - bowed wrist. Now we know the back hand swing is not the most powerfull in tennis, right? No, the forehand is.

So the question begs, do we switch from the left hand to the R hand for power? That would fall into place as to what Hogan said, wrt, to hitting with both hands, so to speak.

Anyway, i too love Moe Normans swing and anything you have picked up along the way from his swing, that works for you would be greatly appreciated here.

As far as teachers, wrt to what they believe, I like Mehlhorn, Abe Mitchell, Tommy Amour, Vardon, Pennick, Maves, Hogan and Hogan, Ayers, I know, most of these people I have and never will meet, but I can relate to their message as a guide, but I realized , since I was the one doing the swinging, I had to be responsible for what stayed and what went in my swing.

Do you believe in visualization of the ball flight, or what do you allow yourself to think about during the swing?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

"What seems to work for me, and based on my experience in swinging anything, is the hand nearest the body swings the club back or applies/feels the most pressure on the shaft. If we look at Hogans L wrist, we see that it is bent as if it is already moving the club back.

Having said that, we can watch Hogan's L hand through the entire swing and it executes the same motion as a L handed tennis player making a back hand swing, cupped wrist - bowed wrist. Now we know the back hand swing is not the most powerfull in tennis, right? No, the forehand is.

So the question begs, do we switch from the left hand to the R hand for power? That would fall into place as to what Hogan said, wrt, to hitting with both hands, so to speak."

What happens if that left wrist stay's bent, until the momentum of the club head causes it to rise of it's own accord???

As for the rest I think you may know my take on that, see my clip again

Anyway, i too love Moe Normans swing and anything you have picked up along the way from his swing, that works for you would be greatly appreciated here.

How good would it be if you had your weight to the right of the ball at setup, but still be "centered"? If you could get to the top of your backswing without disturbing the right hip's downswing position? If you could make a simple shoulder turn to the right, drop the hips left & Diagonal, turning the shoulders through. The turning through dragging the arm's with it and a solid right hand palm grip transfers the momentum down through the shaft.

As far as teachers, wrt to what they believe, I like Mehlhorn, Abe Mitchell, Tommy Amour, Vardon, Pennick, Maves, Hogan and Hogan, Ayers, I know, most of these people I have and never will meet, but I can relate to their message as a guide, but I realized , since I was the one doing the swinging, I had to be responsible for what stayed and what went in my swing.

They all have something interesting to say and many ways of saying it. If it works out that you can join the dot's and come out with a great picture of a golf swing, then that is fantastic !!!!

But to join all those dot's maybe you have to place a ball on the floor, take 2 or 3 steps back and to the side of it. Lift a club to a top position that feels comfortable, stare intently between the ball and the target. Think "what do I need to do to smack this little sucka out there?

Instinct should not be ignored, anything that seems impossible to do from your "Thinking Position" is probably a lot more complexed than it needs to be.

Do you believe in visualization of the ball flight, or what do you allow yourself to think about during the swing?

Absolutely, take a chip from just off the green. How do we gauge how much power to put in it. Visualize that little chip a couple of times and then before you loose that clear picture take a shot. Only way I can be accurate.

As for during the swing, almost nothing. I have a specific takeaway Feel-Thought and that's it, everything else is to do do with maintaining the forwards pressure of my body. It's not in verbal terms, more of a little competition. The backswing want's to pull me away from it but my initial shot intention wont let it.

DJV,

Thanks for the reply. Good stuff.

You wrote,

"Instinct should not be ignored, anything that seems impossible to do from your "Thinking Position" is probably a lot more complexed than it needs to be."

Hogan mentions. I reverse every natural instinct. I have always had a problem with that statement. Especially since he also that we must swing with feel?

Now I am not saying Hogan was wrong, but from a literal point of view, I disagree. However, I believe there was more to it than just the statement. As matter of fact, I have never even read the quote, or the context from which it was written. I believe it was from Power Golf, which I have not read.

Also, wrt, to what you stated, Hogan believed that the only thing complicated about the swing was the explanation and that there was only a small number of things we needed to get right.

As far as all the books I have had the chance to read, the most common message I get from all of them is the ability to relate the golf swing to our own natural motion of things we already know how to do that require little , if any, thoughts at all. Simple , simple simple, was the best path.


As far as Moe is concerned and his swing, WOW!

You wrote,

"How good would it be if you had your weight to the right of the ball at setup, but still be "centered"? If you could get to the top of your backswing without disturbing the right hip's downswing position? If you could make a simple shoulder turn to the right, drop the hips left & Diagonal, turning the shoulders through. The turning through "

I think that would be the greatest feeling in the world, wrt, to golf.

I like what you said about not disturbing the hips from their downswing position. This goes back to the natural throw motion or pitching motion. The hips never rotate back, per se, the right seems to rise, or in Moe's case, and because of his straigh R leg, it was already there.? Also, because the legs started straight, and the extended arms, there was a large amount of forward lean and pressure.

Not sure if this all is what Moe intended or what really took place, but I could definately skip a rock with that set up.

Mave's actually once said he prefferes Moe's set up position and that his swing was a cross between Moe and Hogan.

Thanks and look forward to hearing from you again.

BTW, Your clip was actually what i was refering to wrt to how each arm and hand worked and the pressures they managed

Mark, 1lovegolf24

PS, I think I am in the mood to go watch some of my favorite Moe videos.

DJV,

How about this video and Moe's reference to Ernest Jones as a teacher and some of Moe's latest thoughts on the swing.

!

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Mark wrote:
As far as all the books I have had the chance to read, the most common message I get from all of them is the ability to relate the golf swing to our own natural motion of things we already know how to do that require little , if any, thoughts at all. Simple , simple simple, was the best path.

To some degree it is good to relate or compare other sports to golf in the hopes that we can understand golf from those experiences. How effective those other experiences are to golf depends how good we were at those other sports. Batting, pitching, using an axe or swingblade, hockey stick handling, skipping a stone are all things I have done but that is not saying I did them well. I was to some degree as frustrated with them as I am at golf.

Don't have time to watch the Moe video right now but look forward to it.

1lovegolf24 wrote:


I'm embarrassed to say I haven't read any of Ernest Jones' work.
I watched this video a while ago when it 1st came out on YouTube, I think with Moe and other instructor's it's all about "Picking the Wheat from the Chaff". There are a few golden nuggets interspersed throughout a whole load of "chitter chatter".

In some cases like Moe, I think his swing was so simple that if he just stuck to the "Facts" about how he swung the club, he would have had very little to say. He's a great example of the hardest thing in golf, communicating.

Terms he has used in the past like "The Rod and Claw", Vertical Drop etc. Really meant something to him, those words probably set off thousands of nerve impulses in Moe's "Feel Memory". We could probably spend the next 5 years debating what he or another Great meant, if we ever came to an agreed verbal description of how it all worked. Then we could put it into practice and then probably come back to each other saying "Didn't work for me"

If there is a video of a great ball striker explaining how he does it, I always ended up doing the same thing. Watch it once or twice, then turn the sound off watch it again. Write/think in my own terms of my take on the swing. One of the biggest problems is learning someone else's "Golf English". We can spend months or years trying to understand what that Person is talking about, we try to convert their words into positions or feel. But as you have stated, we already have our own "Feel Terminology" built up over a number of years of performing various task's.

So as I stated above about not finding a Golf Teacher "who could teach Me about Me" this is exactly what I'm referring to. If you see the students of a particular teacher and it's easy to see that his "Fundamentals" are present in those students. (Not Clone Like, but unmistakable signatures ). "The students can walk the Teachers talk", then you have probably found a very rare person indeed.

Sorry this is a very long winded way of saying that I keep away from interpreting what others Verbally mean, I try to interpret their physical moves. It saves me from learning their "Golf English" before learning their "physical signature". I'm sure after watching John Wayne as kids, we all pulled off that "Rolling gate" of a walk he had. Never been told how to do that one

Hi Mark
Interesting insights everyone is having regarding Hogan's swing/secret. For me, it is all too complicated and I really can't adopt the insights into my own swing. I have given Paul Kopp's instruction a hard go, practicing the drills for a month solid, every day. However, while playing on the golf course, there are way to many things to keep track of and do to hit the ball well. I don't think I was doing Martin Ayers instruction correctly, because each time it felt like I was going to dislocate my right shoulder. The Dynalign/Geoff putting methods seem to work in theory, but again, in real playing, they just break down for me. (As many times that I walk around the hole, I still can't get my spider legs correctly figured out).
My putting has shrunk too,each time, trying to figure out how I'm going to get the dang thing in the hole.

So far, out of all the instructions I have had from teaching pro's, countless books, and videos (Leslie King's book was the first one I ever read and followed) I find if I follow the instructions in Five Lessons to the letter, and view the lessons thru the eyes of Keern, then I give myself the best chance of hitting the ball where I want it to go. But what works for me is probably not going to help the next guy. If you are ever passing through Eugene, then get a hold of me, and we can swap golf thoughts in one of the multitude of microbreweries we have here.


Dr. Alan Smith

Dr Smith,

As you know, I am a big supporter of Keerns's and his work. Of all the people I have talked about, wrt, to Five lessons, Keerns has put the pieces of the puzzle together the best.

I wish he would post here more , and right now I am extending him an invitation to discuss Hogan and his thoughts.

In the past, the usual set of characters have never really given him the opportunity to discuss his thoughts without distractions, nor anyone else who thinks for themselves.

Also, I will take you up on that offer soon and maybe take a quick drive up in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Don wrote:


Don,

Thanks for the post.

Yes, I agree. Not all of us succeeded and some struggled with some of the motions you listed above.

However, there is one instructor who believes there are natural motions we all do and can relate to. From there, he suggest using those simple motions into simple swing motions involving things almost anyone can accomplish, with little practice and thought.

For instance, my daughter is 6 yrs old and without me showing her how, can hold a bat, and a ball, then toss the ball up and hit it with the bat, using one hand or two.

I showed her two things. One was a proper baseball grip, which is R hand on topp, for a R hander. Also, I suggested she stand perpendicular to the pitcher. That was it.

She can throw a frisbee, learned by herself. I suggested a way to hold it and to stand perpendicular to where she wanted to throw it. That's it.

And of course , she can throw.

Now she has been walking for 5 yrs and has developed timming and pivot, wihithout thought.

Now what do you think her instructions would be , if I asked her to show me how to do all those things. my guess is she would repeat back to me exactly what I told her.

My point is, and what the great instructors all did was siplify the explanation and teach us how to teach ourselves using our own abilities we already have. if my 6 yr old can learn all the above motions, at a beggining level with very little instruction and probably zero thought, WHY SHOULD GOLF BE ANY DIFFERENT

Another point I was hoping to make, and this post is not dirrected to you specifically, btw, is that the reason golf is so complicated is we try to learn by a complicated explanation and manufactured method, rather than a simple one using skills,thoughts and feels we allready possesand are able to use in a golf swing.

Don, if you don't have the time to watch Moe's video, one of the things he mentions is , I quote,; "golf is so simple now.". "so eeeesy". End quote

I am not saying golf is as easy as picking up a club and shooting par. Golf is like any other thing, we have to work at it. Trying to learn something new, for someone older than a teenager, is like trying to learn a new language, the traditional way. To absolutely learn something new, we have to learn it the same way we learned something when we were younger, as is now how new languages are being taught, rather than the old way. If we can unlock how we learn, train, teach, we can see that everyone has the ability already.

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

This comment was posted in another thread and I thought is was a turning point in understanding my path. The only difference is, I believe just the opposite in terms of my swing and what I feel naturally.

I quote:

"The golf swing is far from natural....I know many people believe it is....but it just isn't that simple.
If it was 95% of the world's golf population wouldn't be stuck scoring in the rear end of 80's the 90's and beyond.

We can make it simple and utilize natural motion to effect but there is too much force at work from all different angles that we need to work against and resist as well as use in our favour to make the golf swing work efficiently to it's fullest potential or high standard

"Reverse every NATURAL instinct and you may come close to having a good golf swing"

My argument is not with the poster or whether the statement is even true or not. I just happen to belive and travel a different path.

My first thoughts , wrt, 95% of the worlds golf population stuck scoring in the rear end of 80 and 90's may be true, but not because their swing is natural or not. My thinking is, 95% of the golfing population does not spend enough time working on their swing, and when they do, it is unproductive practice. Again, nothing to do with natural or not. As a matter of fact, all great swings look natural to me, in their own way.

A manufacured swing , IMO, is a point in ones swing where they are still searching for their natural feel and swing motion and understanding of their abilities and how they work. When they finally get it,and they begin to play their best golf, it will look natural and feel natural to them, but eventually they will find their natural swing, regardless of instruction.

Natural motion is the building blocks of owning our swings. Without it, we won't own our swing, and it will never feel natural. It may work for awhile, but it will resemble a struggle to swing like someone else and one may become lost when things go atray. On the other hand, a byproduct of having a natural swing is, the abilty to fix it, on the fly.

Wrt to ground forces, well, this site was founded on feels of the R foot in the ground and how that pressure may have allowed, arguably the best ball striker ever, a leg up on the competition.

From the time we bagan to walk, the foot has felt ground pressure and has allowed us to balance our bodies and the motions we execute everyday, without a single thought, ever. Even in Mike Mave's own words, he did not advocate screwing the R foot into the ground, per se, he just wanted people to be aware of what we should feel in a balanced swing motion.

That brings up what I believe is the more important factor, wrt, to ground forces, and that is balance. Weight shift and producing ground pressures and opposing them is what we do naturally when we are in balance. Trying to train the body to do this, requires unecessary thought and effort to do what we already know how to do. I am not saying we should not observe it, but it should happen as a matter of executing a balanced swing, naturally.Pressure in the R foot should be an effect, not a cause.

A comment was made awhile back that in order to experience this natural feel of weight shift, ground forces, etc, it to swing something heavy. This will force or exaggerate, all the necessary actions to balance and swing the weight, and without thought. That is because we naturally have balance our bodies our whole life. personally, if I want to know anything, wrt, to where anything should be in the swing, or what feels I should experience, I can merely swing my arm in a circle. All the information needed is right there. Hip motion, rotation, foot pivot, sholuder turn, etc. If we trust our natural motion, implement it into our golf swing, It may take 2-3, maybe 4 or 5 yrs, and maybe longer, depending on the time we spend, but we will own and understand our swing, and keep improving.

The point is, we don't forget how to do or execute the motions we have done all our lives, so how long will it take you to memorize someone elses?

I believe reversing every natural motion, whether Hogan said it or not, is a mistake for me. My natural feel and gut instincts are all I have.

So thats my nickles worth, and no matter what path you decide to travel, at least decide on one thing. Be passionate about it, and enjoy it. Not everybody has the same opportunities we have to enjoy and love this great game. I for one am grateful, to say the least.

Thanks,

Mark, 1lovegolf24

DJV,

wrt to the feel of moving off the ball and Hogan's head motion, this video dynamically shows the same motion. I do not do it on purpose or even think about it. However, it seems hogan thought it was important to find a way to put it in his swing. The head and hands lead the body.



That is the purpose of the video. What kind of swing can we produce when there is no thoughts of mechanics, positions, hands, the ground, etc?

Having said that, on a side note, I see some people implement this into their swings artificially and it looks awkward becuase they don't know why it works and that it is a dynamic motion and natural one. At least that is how I look at it.

On a side note, that is how we identify and implement natural motion into our golf swings. We simple observe ourselves operating naturally and see how we work and move without thinking. Does that make the golf swing easy/ Of course not, but it does make the golf swing easier.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Hi Mark
Looking forward too our get together. For fun, I checked out the Golf wrks forum. Every single reference too Keern's work is locked, including my short video of my girlfriend after 6 swings of a golf club for the first time in her life absolutely, crushing the ball. She had no preconceived notions or thoughts moving thru her head. I thought that demo would at least get some of the critics to take notice. Apparently not. It just allowed the topic too be banned and locked. (But not before 75,000 people viewed the topics. Yee Hah, strike one up for the first amendment ) I'm surprised Golf wrks hasn't totally remove the topic all together. Here on the dirt, one has too look real hard. Interesting. I think it is time for Scully and Mulder to look into the matter.

Well Mark your passion for golf is obvious and I don't think you can make your position any clearer !

Now for the sake of your own sanity realize that you can do no more, you can only state your beliefs and take solace in knowledge that you said your piece. Converting others on a wide scale is near impossible, you end up in a De-Ja-Vu cycle repeating yourself over and over again.

But to what end? Time taken away from actually practicing, frustration and a loss of love for the game if your not careful.

At this time we have "supposedly" the best equipment, 100's of thousands of driving ranges and more coaches than we can shake a stick at. Yet as we all know average handicap's are still poor. So the latest driver and ball gives you an extra XX yards, the owner spends many hours machine gunning range ball's with it. The false confidence this creates leads the player to his once a month game, only to find he can't hit a fairway and is hitting the ball an extra xxyds but in the direction of the deep woods.

So he goes back to the range and practices more and more, he eventually becomes self aware and his swing really starts to smooth out. He's become a ball striking machine, this new level of confidence is such that he has very high expectations on the course. So he goes back to the course and the new swing holds up and is impressive to behold. But he still can't score, frustration set's in and the love for the game begins to turn to anxiety.

There is a simple problem, the guy has learned to play "Driving Range" and not learned to play golf. If you want an example of "unnatural" standing on a driving range machine gunning ball's in order to improve our "Navigation" around a golf course seems very unnatural to me.

Been There Done That