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Nice side by side gifs phily!

What I see is that into impact there is a bunch of similarities. But when you get one frame post impact things look quite different. That guy on the left is "flowing" into the finish....... the guy on the right looks like he's trying to hit a position. It may just be me, but from the 30,000 foot view that's I see and it really jumps out at me.

We know that cat on the left could hit great shots and I think the guy on the right can as well. I just see 2 very different motions when I view them "in-total".

Rob wrote:


Its the hinge action...Hogan's rolling the hinges to the max...that's why it looks so smooooooooth...and powerful at the same time...But what do I know..lol

Phily,

I did like that swing, but think the one I posted yesterday is better. I will upload it to my PC so I can get a clearer image for comparison. Perhaps you could do another comparison. If you are game I will try to find a Hogan swing from his competitive period with a long iron down the line.

svsvincenzo wrote:


Thought this was relative to your post SVSV......as it shows someone who did roll and lay off on the backswing... Ray Floyd.......but he knew how to slot it back and was an all time great players for close to 40 years....and a player whose mechanics didn't break down when the heat was on as he gained the reputation of being one of the best front runners in tournament golf..... interesting look at an entirely different backswing but slotting it right where we need to be for approach to impact..... this is from his 86 US Open win

Bradley Hughes wrote:


Amazing swing. He really overdid the over-rolling and over-fanning, in order to compensate for his grip and flat shoulder turn. Then he held it off and down big time in transition. IMO that costs him distance. Hogan never held off anything. As Martin said a while back, Hogan is in the slot at the TOP.

svsvincenzo wrote:


I agree about the distance.....however golf used to be about precision and shot shaping and trajectory.... now it is all about distance, distance, distance and a hot putter.
Pretty sad that amazing golfers with functioning golf swings were literally phased out overnight (Sutton, Pavin, Faldo) because golf became about slogging the ball and not really placing it....because of golf course setup and hot equipment
It was great fact a few weeks ago at Olympic in the US Open that the two guys in the final group on Sunday were #1 and #2 in the fairways hit stats at that stage of the PGA season.
If they would play on proper golf courses where a functional swing was rewarded more than a thrashing swing then we would be seeing much better movements of the club.....and players would trend away from light upright junk that they only have to move with their arms.....
Unfortunately the powers that be don't see this and promote mediocrity through course setup... disappointing

Fetus,

Gerry is only interested in helping folks that TRULY are searching for FACTS ! He is not interested in joining the neverland and of egos discussing theories and opinions that have been regurgitated for 60 years.
That is just the way he is hard - wired! Everything is THEORY to him until he can proves himself wrong !

Thanks for replying ,

Lane

Bradley Hughes wrote:


Can't agree more. They should find a way to put MORE premium at ball striking. Like the closer you hit the green, the more strokes should be allotted to you to putt...lol...so let's say you hit the ball within 10 feet on a par 3, you have 2 more strokes to par the hole, when you get it close to 5 feet, you have 3 more strokes to par the hole. That would even out the competition between ball strikers and putters...and if you're good at both, you'll be rewarded. And they should ban those long-putters...lol...my apologies to those using 'em, eh...and I think they should be standardized in length and dimensions (size, shape, etc...) like irons and woods...they can face-balance blade putters with plumber's neck hosel now anyway...so why use those putter spaceships?...lol

So I uploaded that swing to my PC, and have it slowed down. I have always said I want Hogan dynamics, which is not the same as looking like Hogan. What I would like to do when you watch this video and view these stills is focus on the club and clubhead. I may or may not get the right elbow to hug me post impact, but regardless I think I am pretty damn close to Hogan at angle of attack, path of attack and control of clubface closure. The bottom line is what does the shot look like. To me, from what I have read and heard from people that watched a lot of Hogan, you must get that piercing trajectory. That doesn't necessarily mean low, but it means the shot is going to show its middle finger to the wind and do what it wants to do. You can see the flight of these shots and decide for yourselves if they have "it." The second one is the driver that I cracked the neck.












The stillls above are where it matters and where I want to most closely resemble Hogan.



At Steve P.:

Regarding standing closer that is good suggestion. You may recall I was doing that in the swing that Phily did the side by side comparison with Hogan. It still is not comfortable for me, and I do look a bit crowed post impact in that swing. Still I think it is a good thing to strive for. I probably was a bit far away in the above swings.

Lane Holt wrote:


Ain't Gerry's FACTS TRULY discovered and documented decades ago by Ben Hogan, Abe Mitchell, Joe Dante, Homer Kelley/TGM, Mac O'Grady, Tom Tomasello, John Schlee and others like Burke, Jr., Dickinson, Bolt and Mowry? So what did Gerry discovered? Rehashed educated hand movements? C'mon...after you've mastered it, what would you do now? How would you pivot? Flat, upright, or just in the middle? Would you turn the hips, the torso, the shoulders, the arms, the hands, or would you just tilt some of them and turn some? How would you take it away, inside, outside, or just in the middle? How would you bring the shoulders, arms, hands and clubhead to the top of BS in a consistent manner, just lift the hands up in there? How would you grip it, every change of which will affect how the hands and clubhead and clubface move? How would you transition, with hips, with shoulders, with knees, with feet, with ankle, with hands? In what direction? How would you move and position your feet, knees and hips, which all affects the movement of those other things above them, namely the torso, shoulders, arms, hands and the club? Where would you source power where clubhead speed will ultimately come from? The hands? And then just let the body follow? C'mon... How would you transfer power to the clubhead from that source? Would you turn or roll your left arm or elbow or hand, or would you hold them off, or just in the middle? Or would you just fire the right hand? How, would you fire them, straighten the R wrist, the R elbow, or push the R triceps? Would you keep each of them bent, or one bent while the other straight, or not at all? Why? Because all of the above affects the action of the hands and the clubhead. Now tell all of that to Gerry and research on it...lol

Dudes have been researching on the golf swing for hundreds of years, including Ben Hogan...and he has proven it in competition despite a formerly poor swing and afterwards despite a wrecked body...and now Gerry is the only one researching...lol...join the Tour first and then bump head-on into a bus...then win majors...lol...then we will listen to your man Gerry...that is if he has something more to say other than the hands...lol

Grady Dickens wrote:


There is only one way to do what Steve P suggested and not feel crowded at impact and post-impact...

svsvincenzo wrote:



Vincenzo,

Have you ever read Gerry Hogans book?

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Mark,

Now you understand why Gerry doesn't participate. I guess I just missed all that research those
dudes performed!

Lane

Lane Holt wrote:



Lane,

It is unfortunate.

I 've been looking at some interesting videos of Moe and Ernest Jones's name come up. Very interesting comments about the hands.

When viewing video now, the first thing I pay attention to is the motion of the hands. of course the second is the head and how it relates to the motion of the hands.

I truely believe that some day the swing motion will be taught entirely from the perspective of the hands and head. The rest of the body will fall into place.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

svsvincenzo wrote:


Vincenzo,

Almost everything that has been written and said about the golf swing are "subjective" statements of a player or a teacher. It is golf and golf swing "my way"! All subjective statements!

Do you think Hogan knew how to do "scientific" research? The only pro golfer who used some "scientific" method in his book was Dr. Cary Middlecoff. Golf business thrives on hacker's ignorance.

SVSV wrote:

…Because all of the above affects the action of the hands and the clubhead. Now tell all of that to Gerry and research on it...lol

Lee Comeaux is here in the Dirt, accessible, giving of his knowledge and unless I am mistaken, a proponent of , hands control not only the swing, but most direct link for all body movement related to the golf swing…

Because of the action of the hands, all the above are affected .Its called proprioception.

You obviously feel strongly about the hands not controlling the swing, not to mention it wasn’t written in 5L(obviously a good enough reason to reject by your accounting). Where do you stand on collar bones? Never mind, NOT IN 5L, we know.

So have it out with Lee Comeaux. You da Man, SVSV… or are you?

Lane Holt wrote:


In fairness I think one reason that Gerry stopped participating was offered in his last post on the 'G.H. Swing & Instruction' thread, it read - "I have been approached by a Group and the conversations have become extremely interesting. I'm happy to offer advice and suggestions here that come from my work but don't want to do it at my eventual loss." And that was it. (possibly a copyright control issue with using new thoughts to explain the original books instruction).

Some things below that those of you who have read his book could elaborate on (if I have these quotes correct) -

".....If you try to consciously control more than one element of your swing, you are sure to make a mess of it".

ok, one thing, but he also says -

"Provided you have dropped your hands into the slot correctly, the downswing will proceed correctly, too virtually of its own accord There are just two things you need to worry about, and both concern the hands. The first is to keep your hands locked in the slot position--that is, with watch pointing up, right knuckles pointing down and right elbow firm against the side---for as long as possible."

isn't that 'two' things, he says they both concern the hands but then includes the right elbow by telling you to remember to keep it firm against the side (?)

"This will require a conscious effort, because what you are doing is overpowering the hands natural inclination to roll over."

until you commit it to memory / subconscious and it becomes second nature ... then what do you focus on (?)

Also can someone repost the quote from Gerry's book where he says the hands execute the golf swing? I want to read how he phrased that.

- thanks

@Mark,

Rather than just saying the hands and head are important, what do they do in the golf swing? What are your feels?

@All Hands guys

Rather than just saying "hands" control the golf swing tell us exactly what the hands do and what you feel.

These general pronouncements are tiresome and contribute NOTHING to the journey.

Yes the head is heavy. The position of the head, because of eyeline influences club path. It's weight must be considered as a counterbalance. If you are going to get it out over the ball you better get the tush line deep.

As for the hands, I want to rotate the left forearm accross my chest once the clubhead gets even with my hands around hip height. I want that rotation to continue during transition so I feel the right thumb pointing behind me and down behind the right foot. Sure I want the right palm to feel that it is facing the sky at delivery, but I go even further and try and feel the palm of my left hand facing the target when I get the club to delivery. I want to feel like the clubhead almost touches the ground before I whip it around through impact. I am not even close to those feels in reality, but I believe they are leading me to the Hogan dynamic. Ignoring discussion of the pivot and use of the ground, I feel some slack in the hands when I have transitioned to delivery properly, and this allows me to really use my hands through impact to hit the crap out of it and orbit pull left post impact. Without that slack I can't get the club back squarely to the back of the ball from the deep, heavily leavereaged delivery position I achieve.

So there is some substance. Let's see something meaningful from you guys.

Cy wrote:


You know man golf is not scientific research. Performing a golf swing is an athletic endeavor. Are you taking a shot at Hogan's research ability?
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF FIELD TESTING??????????
Building a swing is like any engineering project-you do the best you can to do the math but the PROOF IN THE PUDDING IS WHERE THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD. Until an idea is tested it is USELESS!
Ben Hogan proved his field testing/method against the best in the world. (EVEN AFTER HORRIBLE INJURIES) I can't name one all hands guy thats done anything except TALK and TELL people they have answers. IMO all hands is total BS.
Is science the key to performing a golf swing???
If you can solve physics equations does that make you better at holding a mid iron into a left to right wind on hole 18 trying to win a major????
Give me a break.
There is no one secret thing that makes one excel at this game-it takes dogged determination and practice thats it.
I am so tired of reading repetitive commercials telling anyone who will listen to forget any idea of technique and just slap at the ball with your hands...
Some people realize hands slapping is the method of the HACKER.
Why can't you all hands guys form your own thread and put your handslap commercials there?
Ben Hogan was the antithesis of disconnected handslapping. Thats why he became one of the best of all time.
Anyways whatever if flailing your arms freely and handslapping works for you then do it-just don't tell anyone in a thread discussing BEN HOGAN to think of such silly ideas-it contributes nothing-no one wants to read commercials-if people wanted commercials they could watch TV.
Maybe if Billy Mayfair had a son you hands guys could hire him to do commercials on golf channel showing everyone how forgetting all technique and slapping the hands is the secret to golf success.

phily wrote:



Phily,

Pg.11, from The Hogan Manual of Human Performance Golf.

I quote;

"it is possible to control the entire golf swing by controlling just a couple of key movements - specifically, of your hands and head."

End quote.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Anyone ever look at the Hogan Mexico footage a bit? Look at his address position with the arms. I have seen people say before things like "look-he said elbows facing armpits but thats not what he does-Five Lessons is a book of feels"
I disagree. I think he had that intention during the swing and I think his address position with the arms allows him to be quite close to the ball and in essence he is 'trapping' himself into a good swing. His handpath options are much more limited.
He knows he will extend due to the forces and the continuation of his own rotation.
He also said a good swing should be a physical pleasure. To me this is quite significant.
I also think there is no way Hogan could have succeeded as he did without knowing what he was doing. IMO his 'feels' were probably some of the most accurate a golfer could have-he KNEW what he was doing.
I wonder if he had a huge feeling of strain or whether he had more of a feeling of quickness and smoothness. He said physical pleasure...
LOL did he ever say all you gotta do is handslap? ROFLMAO

Grady, Steve P

Have either of you read Gerry Hogans book?

Mr Gerry Hogan mentions just two principles, in his book, one of which is ...., I quote,; "working in the same plane-or slot, as Hogan, called it" End quote.

Also, Steve P.

Not once have I ever heard anyone refering to some sort of slap motion, or flailing ones arms, wrt, using the hands.

This is the perfect thread to discuss the hands and the head and how they relate to what Ben Hogan did, and what I believe Ben Hogan figured out, and what Gerry Hogan researched for 30 yrs.

Without understanding what the hands want to do naturally, how can we expect to fix anything, whether that means going against our hands' instincts, or better yet, using them to our advantage. Exploit their nature, so to speek.

And last, but certainly nort least, all post, including yours, is a matter of opinion. So if you don't like the ones offered here, don't read them. Furthermore, you, as is everyone else, always welcome to start your own thread. I wish you the best. Fair enough?

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


@Mark,

Yes, but only the link of excerpts posted a way back in this thread.

If there is something in there that is NEWLY discovered wrt Hogan, please tell me.

Lane Holt wrote:


Actually I think you did...