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Timothy Goynes wrote:


Tim, thanks for the info. What I initially said is that it felt like I was standing too far from the ball during the takeaway and while coming down. Just felt like I was reaching for the ball. But at address with club sitting static behind the ball, all felt normal; didn't feel too far at all. So I would take a swing and feel the reaching stuff, but couldn't get the guts to stand in closer; haven't gotten over the fear of shanking one off the hozel into somebody's head. Next time I'm gonna get a far right range spot so I can face that fear.

When I say alignment, I mean the shoulders, feet, hips, ball placement. I have no idea where it all goes. I'm just standing there whacking at it. Only real swing thought I have is to load the right leg during takeaway/upswing, then hit the ball with the right elbow.

My right foot feels too far back. And I'm not basing this on ball flight, just on what I feel like when swinging....feels like I'm reaching. I know you said Hogan drops his right foot back with certain shots. Imagine this: that you've addressed the ball as you normally do, then drop your right foot back about 2 feet. Then when you swing through impact, your front right thigh crashes against your inner left thigh. Thats what mine feels like, and looks like on video.

Timothy Goynes wrote:


I have been walking scorer on Nationwide tour for the past 4 years. I believe, well over 90% of young pros stay slightly "open" on standard shots including driver.

What has that to do with Hogan's swing, Cy?

Cy wrote:

Ben Hogan Swing Project wrote:


That's a telling comment. You gotta know where to put that stuff. The grip and setup are without a doubt THE most important elements of the golf swing. Get those right, and pretty much everything else falls into place.

Here's the deal with the shoulders and hips though. If you have a correct grip and a correct stance, the shoulders and hips will take care of themselves.

Here is my brief synopsis of Hogan's foot position: 1) Stand just wider than shoulders for a standard 5-iron shot, 2) left foot turned out a quarter turn, 3) right foot SQUARE to intended line of flight--that's important, by the way! That's basically it.

As far as ball position, Hogan advocated that the ball be placed just inside the left heel for a standard shot. It may be placed farther back in the stance for a lower shot. The distance to the ball should be such that the handle of the club is more or less under your nose at address.

Knowing that, now here is the process for getting into the correct position. Provided you have a correct grip on the club, you step into the shot first by setting the club behind the ball square to the target. Then, walk the rest of the way into the shot by placing your left foot in the correct position--just ahead of the ball, with the foot turned out a quarter turn. Then place the right foot to achieve the proper stance width relative to the club you are using, making sure that the right foot is dead square to the intended line of flight.

If you follow these steps, your entire body will be lined up correctly for the shot (including the hips and shoulders), regardless of whether the right foot is dropped back or not.

Cy wrote:


While that may be true, Cy, I believe Hogan's methodology is better. The right foot dropped back aids the golfer in making a fuller hip and shoulder turn on the longer clubs, thus resulting in greater power through the shot.

And it's pretty hard to argue with a guy as accurate as Hogan, you know? The Nationwide guys DO hit it a long way (though a lot of that is because of the new technology...heck, I myself hit it a lot longer now than I did with my persimmons), but a lot of them don't hit it very straight off the tee.

Timothy Goynes wrote:


The young guns of Nationwide tour are stronger and more flexible than Mr. Hogan's generation. Being open is a kind of anti hook insurance for these pros.

Of course for older golfers like myself, you can gain 10 to 20 yards by staying "closed" and hitting draw/slightly hooking shots.

Cy wrote:


Two things...first, I do agree that a draw will help players hit it farther if they need more distance. However, as I stated before in my posts to BHSP, your feet have practically nothing to do with whether you draw it or fade it. You can hit fades/slices out of a closed stance, and draws/hooks out of an open stance (even Lee Trevino actually hit more draws than you would think!). Whether your feet are open or closed has little bearing on swing path or clubface orientation...it simply affects the amount of turn you can make going back. Where you line up your whole BODY is a different story, but even then your shot direction and curvature can be affected by ball position, grip, and countless other factors. But as I stated before, I like Hogan's approach...set that right foot perpendicular to your intended starting line, regardless of whether you set up with your feet open or closed.

The other thing, though...I realize more players are using personal trainers, but seriously? Humans have not somehow evolved into stronger and more flexible specimens since Hogan's day. I started playing with persimmon woods and balata, as I'm sure you did...you know as well as I do how hard it is to move a ball with that equipment, let alone straight. Ben averaged 250 to 260 off the tee with very poor golf balls by today's standards. That's still longer than Corey Pavin and even Fred Funk hit it today with modern clubs, so you can imagine that he would be in the upper-middle range in driving distance, even as small in stature as he was. Sam Snead regularly hit it over 300 with the same equipment, and was a tremendous multi-sport athlete (there's even a great story about Sam kicking the top of a doorframe at the age of 65). George Bayer was a big guy who hit it well over 300. Mike Souchak as well was a strong hitter, as was Byron Nelson, Jimmy Demaret, and Tony Lema. Perhaps no golfer in history has been more fit than Gary Player, and he could rip the ball out there a long, long way...especially for his size. Arnold Palmer was incredibly strong and fast and could bust it out there. And of course, the great Jack Nicklaus had arguably the strongest pair of legs the game has ever seen, and could hit a golf ball farther than just about anybody. His average carry, as stated in Golf My Way, was 260 with a driver. Today's Tour carry average is 269. That means Jack in his prime would be hitting right up there with most players on Tour today, even using his persimmon clubs. Imagine how far he would hit it with modern equipment!

The other hole in the argument that "today's players are better athletes" is that there are TONS of stocky, even downright FAT, players that are on the Tour and playing well. Look at guys like Kevin Stadler, Colt Knost, Carl Petterson, Steve Marino, Billy Mayfair, Jason Gore, Brendan De Jonge, Phil Mickelson, Jason Dufner (who just won!), Graeme McDowell, and many others. Some of those guys can knock it way out of the park, too.

Timothy Goynes wrote:


Have you heard about a golfer called Tiger Woods?

Do you know that most PGA pros now have personal physical trainer?

10 years of Tiger dominance changed the nature of tournament golf forever! The good old days of smoking, drinking, and winning golf tournaments is long gone. Ask John Daly!

Physical training for golf works not only for PGA pros (thanks to Gary Player and Tiger Woods) but more importantly for older golfers like myself in a big way: more strength, balance, stability, distance, and overall physical health.

One sure way to improve your golf is to build your golf muscles in a gym.
This site has thousands of golf specific exercises for free:

www.mytpi.com

Yeah, I heard about that Tiger Woods guy. I also noticed that he hit it longer back when he was in his early 20s, before he bulked up. I've also heard that he likes his drink, too.

And yes, I know that players use personal trainers...didn't I just say that? Here's my opening sentence to my 2nd paragraph:



Am I saying being a better athlete is bad for golf? Not at all! My point is that the golfers of yesteryear weren't all fat, out-of-shape slobs, no more than they are today. These guys made their living playing golf, so no doubt they made sure they were physically able to make a full turn and stay in balance. I'd even venture to say there are MORE out-of-shape (and successful) golfers on Tour today than there used to be, due to the higher prevalence of fast food restaurants and highly processed foods.

My other point is that the great deal of players back in the day could hit those persimmon drivers and crappy balls farther than most of us could. They would be long hitters today with modern equipment too. So if they could generate that power to hit antiquated equipment over 260 yards, we ought to listen up as to how they did it.

FO vid is of full swing.
DTL vid is of 3/4 swings.

Been focusing on getting my clubshaft more vertical during takeaway/upswing. In my mind, I tried to exagerate the feeling; based on the DTL swings in this vid, I am still doing the same stinkin thing as I always have for the past few years.

I can see a lot clearer when comparing animated gifs. And I have mucho issues.
- Hips turning to quickly during takeaway
- Right leg not becoming enough of a kickstand
- I have no transition
- Lag not being maintained on downswing
- Head/shoulders not staying back during downswing
- HIPS SLAMMING ON BRAKES!!!
- RIGHT ARM/ELBOW STRAIGHTENING BEFORE IMPACT!!!
- No reverse C

Over the past couple of weeks, I've made a few changes to my equipment and I've been working on a few homemade drills. I've officially tossed the metal clubs. Not in the trash, but in the corner. Now working with only wooden clubs. Bought a couple of stiff steel shafted 3 and 5 woods. The 3W has an old jumbo rubber wrap grip on it. I reeeeeealy like the feeling of the jumbo grip. Never thought I would like it. Thought it would be too big.

Played a round last week at Alfred Tup Holmes with Dad, Terrell, and Bruce. They all play with all new-school modern stuff. They ragged me alllllll day about my clubs lol. They all got up to the tee and made the "cling" sound, while I made the "knock" sound. Plus most times I was always shorter than everybody else. The most fun part about the day was on hole #17 which is an over-the-cliff shot. it's about a 260 yard hole. I "luckily" drove the green (actually the right side fringe) and Bruce was all pissed cause I used a 1969 club with screws vs his nice shiny TaylorMade Burner driver. I must have hit it on the screw or something with that 3Wood cause it went much farther than usual. So of course the friendly argument started with him saying I got lucky with my wooden sh!t. So, I graciously handed my heavy a$$ed club over to him and said, "You can try it out........This old sh!t is a little harder to hit man...doesn't have the same kind of sweet spot as your 460cc driver. I'm just lettin you know!!" Bruce's ego said "a club is a damn club....." There was a group waiting behind us so he couldn't back down in front of an audience. My Dad is telling us to move on cause we're holding people up. He doesn't like making scenes in public. Bruce teed it up and did his usual chicken swing. Swung as hard as he possibly could and hit it super fat with lots of dust and dirt everywhere. The ball rolled down the hill and everybodys laughing real good. Perfect moment for a video camera!!!!!!!!!! Next time one of those challenges goes down, he camera will be rolling. He tossed the club to me and laughed along with all of us and said "Man that club is stupid. That's why they stopped makin them!" And to top it all off, I won by 1 stroke with a 99. I don't even think Bruce gave me a handshake lolol! I'm thinking I could have shot in the low 90's or high 80's if I used irons. I don't plan to pick those up till I'm satisfied with the woods. I do use a PW from 40 yds and in.

In the Take 34 vid, I'm doing 3/4 swings, experimenting with some left side stuff. The major issues I see are....errr....ummm.... everything. My wrists are c0cking waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay early during the upswing, I still haven't worked on the transition, head/upper body doesn't stay back, and my hips are still moving too fast towards the target, or either my arms aren't moving fast enough to catch up with the hips. Plus there's probably some OTT and I can't seem to remember to bring the left cup down. Overall, just feels like my timing is off. Feels like I'm c0cking the wrists real late, but video shows differently. And I'm having a hard time convincing my subconcious that c0cking later is a good thing.

Most of these swings carried about 180-200yds either straight, fade, or pushed right. My major misses were topped shots that turned into real low line drives. Majority of the topped ones were without a tee. Still don't know where to put the ball in the stance. Top priority in these range sessions is the mechanical aesthetic stuff.

I'm also doing some new stuff regarding my chipping and pitching. Feels like a body swing instead of arms and hands. Will get some video of it this weekend. I'm curious as to how it looks. Lol, probably doesn't look anything like it feels. Will also get a video up of Bruce's "unorthodox" swing. He hits it veeeery long even with a reverse pivot. His impact is what I am after. Right elbow bent and everything, but the visual intrepretation he provides isn't for the weak stomached folks lol!

Getting ready to order some of those jumbo grips!! (Or maybe it is a mid sized with lots of tape or something??? May have to take it to a golf shop to find out.)

I'm no expert and if I'm going over old ground then I apologise.
As far as your grip size is concerned, get the CORRECT ones fitted or fit them yourself. Take your normal grip, remove your right hand and without changing you grip pressure look at the finger tips of your left hand. They should be comfortably touching the pad. Digging in and you need larger, this may only be an extra couple of layers of tape, if there's a gap you need a smaller grip.
I can see from the videos that your faults are basic ones are not too much needs changing. You have more than enough turn away from the ball, you don't need it, you can't hit the ball with your back swing. Move your ball forward in your stance and get used to chasing it, but not by sliding forward like you're doing now, keep that left ear behind the ball. Watch some original Sevam1 and some Mo Norman and remember THE GAME IS PLAYED IN FRONT OF YOU.
Hope this is useful to you.

Thanks for the info Chris.

About the grip: what you said makes sense. But for me, I'd rather do it in reverse. Like get a bunch of clubs lined up, all with different sized grips. Then blindly grab each of them and see how each feels while I swing it. Once I get the one that feels the best, I'll look down and see how my finger tips look. But it would probably end up being the same result as the "look at the fingertip" method.

About the ball position: not sure where it goes yet cause I haven't built the aesthetic/mechanical swing to where I want it. When I'm happy with the "swing movement", I'll get the highest speed 3D camera I can find (maybe at a movie studio or golf studio) and find out where my club squares/opens/closes around impact. Overhead ball view, X axis and Y Axis, etc. Or I could get a few thousand range balls and move the ball around in my stance till it flies the way I want it to, but the Computer version is my preference.

Yes, I know I am weird.

I'm skipping transition study for now and will put all efforts and brainpower into impact and what my right elbow does. I need an impact bag. I'm liking what I see here with pre impact, at impact, and post impact! Feels like I'm hitting rather than swinging here. Will drill it all week then take it to the range this weekend.

My current study material and homework. DTL Impact training guide 1

Because of the change in seasons, the driving range now closes at 6pm. So now I have to stop by there at 8am to get in some hitting practice. Best thing about this time of morning is the glaring sun in my face; I can't see where the ball is going. Allows me to put all my focus on the swing movement and not the result.

Working on some stuff Kim and I discussed this weekend. Working towards fixing my disorder I've developed over the past few months.

Upper body work only. Absolutely no pushing off the right foot. Want to play around with the upper body only without having lower influence it. Working on new transition stuff. I've also changed the takeaway and upswing over the past 2 weeks.

These swings are not full power. Only 150yard shots so I can understand the new feeling. The thing I like most about this move is what the club head does at the top. From the DTL view, CH does a clockwise "U" pattern loop near my head.

I'm not physically working on this part of the swing yet, but theorizing about it Is always fun. Looking forward to adding the right foot thrust.

I remember experimenting with the right foot back in Take 25. For a while now, I have been purposefully not thrusting anything. Just kind of rolling the right foot thru. I want to know what it looks like and feels like for a person to have a rolling foot instead of a driving/thrusting foot. I still have a bunch of other things to tweek before I get to the thrusty part.

His right foot thrusts and right heel raises well before impact. Mine begins to raise well after impact. Gonna be fun workin on this swing dance!

Ben Hogan Swing Project wrote:


BHSP, what will happen when you add that "firs part of the chain" change to one "ready" complete system?

IMO that would be the first thing to build up and then move upwards and to the hands and club in that order. Specially when you want to build something that looks like the same than Hogan.

1. Feet
2. Knees
3. Hips
4 Shoulders
5 Elbows
6 Hands
7 Club

That is the order and if you make your hands look like they are fine, you add some hip action and you are off again

Tapio Santala wrote:


Yep Tee, I get what you're saying. I have no idea what will happen when I make a change to one of the early items in the chain. The experimenting, theorizing and hypothesizing is the fun part!

From a diffrent prespective.....let's say a person has a complete built swing with areas 1 thru 7 intact. Let's use your own swing for example....what will happen if you change #1? Will that make a drastic difference in #4 or #6? Will you miss the ball? Will it not go as far? Will it go higher and farther? Will flight be different? Will the overall swing look any different in regular speed? slow mo?

BHSP,

Great work there! I must say I see a lot of what I posted about in it. I hope I can do it that well soon.. Watch that Byron footage I posted in my thread as well. Same type of action in transition.