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Brian,

Bottom line is more inertia in the left arm and club assembly requires more power to turn over.

Also, I think he had to utilize a great deal of right arm bicep to assist in holding this left arm assembly angle. I have yet to see anyone that held there upper right arm against their upper torso as long as he did into and post impact.

Yes, think of it this way, with the hands connected and in, the lower they go before the rise, the faster they are propelling the club head out to it's path.

The lower hand path with hands closer to body has a lower MOI than it otherwise would, but the club head path has a greater MOI, resulting it greater speed transfer from hands to club head.

Shit, I guess it is a gear differential effect.

Brian is right.

He is wrong about the supination being the description of the best way to get there, IMHO, but right about the effect.

Brian,

Thanks for clarifying...I tihnk lol. It's much easier to visualize the term perpendicular if you actually give us 2 items, 1 being perpendicular to another. What is perpendicular to what? By saying grip the club as perpendicular as you can across the big knuckles, are you saying grip the club very deep into the finger joints so that the club is perpendicular to your forearm? Correct?

If so, what does this have to do with Hogan? Hogan probably setup with more UD than anyone in history. Furthermore, his description of the grip coincides with UD at setup...aka 3 fingers pulling up/palm pad down. Also we know Hogan had very thick grips, which means he had it set diagonally across the hand, just as he said in 5L. To hold it across your knuckles you would need a very thin grip, otherwise the left pinkie wouldn't wrap around.

BTW, this sensation of not being able to supinate is acheivable with full UD too.

Stan Clemens wrote:


Less inertia innthe hand path, which stay closer to the center of rotation, but yeah, it takes some arm strength to keep it in.

So here we got one of my students at impact with bit more than 100mph ch with 6 iron.

Where is the angle? I can tell you the total angle of left arm and shaft is 30,9 degrees.

Drew,

What are your thoughts on right bicep contraction coming into and post impact? Do you think this is something Hogan actively employed to a great degree?

Tapio,

Imagine your student with that 6 iron has Hogan's lie angle, hands stay lower a bit more below shoulders.

Same hand speed, except, CH flies out more rapidly.

Essentially, the later the hands stay low and in, the are shortening the hand path by not rising.

Later swing out, Bigger boost.

Stan Clemens wrote:


Stan,

I feel it in the forearm muscles, the tricep and the obliques on the right side...

The reason it FEELs perpendicular, is because your left arm FEELs vertical and fully extended downward, and the angle from that back of your laft arm into your left heel butt pad feels like it is being sustainied... Feels almost like that wrist cock is turning the corner still cocked very late, even after the shaft begins to swing out.

Powerful feeling and the ball sound of it does not lie.

Tapio Santala wrote:


Down the underside of the left arm straight along the heel pad of the left hand and angled to the part of the pinkie closest to the ground.

Drew Art wrote:


Thanks Drew,

That makes more sense...More of a tricep pulldown motion of the right arm which is assisted by the obliques to help keep the club in as long as possible.

It still amazes me how Hogan was able to keep his right arm glued to his body for so long and finish so high as opposed to an Abe Mitchell type finish.

Drew Art wrote:


Yes it's there. And it's bit less than 30 degrees, which is also bit less than the angle between fingers and shaft.

You know, UD and that angle goes quite much hand in hand. That's why Hogan had so much UD even at his setup.

Stan Clemens wrote:

Stan
I suspect that was due to him having his right elbow as far away from him as he could while it was loading the most. Then the motion of his body worked toward the elbow. If you pull your arm into your body you're toast if you want that finish. Never seen anyone else like Hogan....lots of people Horse it left....but none I have seen that do it his way through the ball and on.

Martin Ayers wrote:


+1

Like I've said many times, I have met lot of people who says they can do it and it's automatic. Never seen one.

[quote="Tapio Santala" post=23399]Brian wrote:


Actually, when the club uncocks, the gear shifts to lower gear, hence the club becomes faster because it's now easier to release it. That's why it feels smoother, easier.

Look at at this way Tapio, when you look down at your hands at address,you can see the clubhead, right. You can see the "illusional radius" between your hands and clubhead a certain distance. Try measuring it. Then, without moving your body and hands, just cock the club upwards. Now, look at the "illusional radius" between your hands and clubhead increased by several inches. That means the wheel became bigger; or you can say the gear proportionately became smaller. This is the higher numbered gear. You'll feel it instantly in a practice mini-swing. The club now feels heavier. Harder to move the car, harder to release the club. You need to have stronger engine, you need to have sronger muscles. maximum reachable top or peak speed though is much faster.

Hope this clarifies Tapio.

[quote="Brian" post=23417]Tapio Santala wrote:


The problem is that it doesn't work like that in physics. It's great theory, but only theory because the MOI is so rapid. The other thing is that the radius is not to that direction. The third is that it's not Hogan

Stan Clemens wrote:


Yes. That's why I'm repetitive in saying it makes it immeasurably hard to close the clubface. It totally eliminates you worrying about closing the clubface early. Totally. If not, I find either my left wrist is not flat, my fist is not clenched enough, and/or my fist is not supinating fast enough. If I supinate slow, the uncocking power or CF takes over---downshift=faster face closure rate=lefts.

Drew Art wrote:


Yup. Same principle. Different strokes for different folks.

[quote="Tapio Santala" post=23418]Brian wrote:


If Hogan is relying as his main release mechanism the opposite of what I'm advocating, you mean his main release mechanism is intentionally fully unc0ck the left wrist, correct? If you fully unc0ck, the unc0cking motion is very very fast. So, you have to time that very fast unc0cking motion exactly in order for you to hit the sweet spot. For a forged club, moreso with a blade, the sweet spot is very small. Hogan used "double blades". Also, if you fully unc0ck, your stock divots will be humongous. Hogan's divots on stock shots are very shallow. To avoid the huge divots, you'll have to intentionally "lift" your hands to "lift" the clubhead and avoid the huge divots, which incidentally can hurt your wrist. And you also have to time that exactly. Mistiming means either skulked shots (too early), or fat shots (too soon). And that's for the "lifting". For the "fully unc0cking" timing part, too soon also will result to fats, too late to skulls. So you're timing two things, that makes it double difficult.

Now tell me, would Hogan like all of those things going on that you have to time exactly, instead of just turning and rolling?

That last post makes me think Brian..... that you see the swing as everything going in the direction of the swing.

At the point that the UD happens to the full extent that it does the club head is traveling in a very different direction to the hands....in both actuality and in feel. I feel my hands are going left in relation to both my right axis...and the target line....and the club is going back away from the target behind my right axis and toward the target line.

At that point if I have chosen to play that type of shot if I supinate HARD (as you have described it)....I deloft the club and slow the rate of closure, due to the direction the club is traveling relative to my hands.

So my question to you is this. By perpendicular as possible to the BIG knuckles of the left hand does that mean the MOST in the hand? Because if I grip it in the base of the hand but MORE in the fingers that would run more parallel to the big knuckles.

Brian,

I know this is a bit of a diversion from you on going debate with Tapio here, but I pulled this from that "Let's Talk Golf Machine Thread" in ABS I mentioned to you. This is a post from John. I am curious how you would interpret it in its totality, and, in particular, the last part about working the ball. Is that inconsistent with what you are teaching or compatible?

In my swing you can see that from B-9 to B-10 there is a lot of body moment in the pivot, but my hands stay a constant distance from my belt buckle, the face of the club does not roll, but stays at right angles to my rotating shoulders, so the release or perceived “squaring of the clubface happens through the rotation of the body and not an independent rotation of the hands (in regard to the body)
as you would see in a swinging approach.

The muscular element here is that the hands WANT TO move away from the body here
if you look again at B-9 to B-10. It takes some strength to keep the upper arms close to the body, and the hands in close keeping the shaft on plane. The left wrist also wants to fully uncock, so I am resisting that as well. The thing that some of the pure TGM swingers don’t quite understand is that this effort, or fighting the natural forces that would be trying to separate the arms and hands from the body, is actually putting pressure on my pressure points, and this pressure is FEEL… and this feel can be monitored to help you hit good golf shots.

Since I am on this topic, I’ll shed a bit of extra insight here too..

When I want to draw the ball, I will make an extra effort to hold the wrist cocked through and past impact, and the harder I hold this, the more the ball will tend to slightly draw… and if I cut the hands left, but allow the wrist to uncock this will create a fade. So when I work the ball, it is not a rotating of the wrist action, or moving my aiming point around in the swings arc, but a conscious and deliberate pulling up on #2 or a letting it go (uncock) that will produce slight changes in the flight path, (fade or draw) This is real advanced ball striking technique, and I know most people will never experience this sensation, but I can tell you that from my experience with a lot of different ways of working the ball left or right, this is by far and away the best way to do it. Basically a huge effort in the hands and body creates a very small effect on the ball.

You wouldn’t want the opposite, small change in the body and hands creates huge changes in the ball fight… but that is how most golfers experience the game..

I like to feel like my worst swings still hit relatively straight shots.

Exactly.
Something I have been giving some thought to wrt D-Plane. The effective loft being lower by rights should equate to the face pointing more to the right. As Hogan said in 5 lessons, the left wrist bone is the closest thing to the target at impact....which de-lofts the club slightly, which again by rights should point the face more to the right than maintaining wrist cock...relative to the arc.

Tapio Santala wrote:


I'm talking about the angle of his left arm-shaft when you look at it DTL. So the left impact picture of your student. If we will measure it the standard way, a straight left arm-shaft would be 180 degrees. A perpendicular left arm-shaft would be 90 degrees.

Grady Dickens wrote:


IMO, those methods are just tweaking of clubhead path at impact. The fade swing is a fade because the early release of PA2 makes the clubhead get nearer the targetline earlier, hence the left path, more out to in. The draw swing makes the clubhead farther from targetline, hence more right clubhead path, more in to out. But there will be totally different effects on clubhead speed and rate of clubface closure that you would have to deal with. Distance control will be a problem.

Why not just adopt a draw swing for ALL shots? Draw swing mechanics. Draw swing for a draw. Draw swing for a fade. You switch from draw to straight, straight to fade by just tweaking the timing of your hips vis-a-vis the arms/shoulders/upper body. Wouldn't that be simpler?

So, the LEAST ahead you can make your hips turn, you should be hitting the biggest draw you prefer. The MOST ahead you an make your hips turn should result to your biggest fade. Ain't that simpler?

All you've got to do is adopt the left arm-shaft angle that will ensure you will not get a draw bigger than your preferred biggest draw.

I'm advocating that draw swing method of John, but I'd like to really SUPINATE it hard and fast. No hold-off at all. You prevent release of PA2/uncock BY (1) keeping a flat left wrist, (3) keeping a tightly clenched fist, and (3) rotating that left flat clenched fist fast and hard, aka supination. You can even add the 3 right hands at delivery phase. Makes the engine stronger.

Brian wrote:


And it's pure definition question. Please count 180 - 30,9 and you will get the number you are looking for.