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Grady Dickens wrote:


That's a great swing of Allenby, i love how he keeps his pivot moving so well and it looks to me that he rotates his shoulders more level than just about anyone in the game today, i would think its his shallow entry with a nice open face at p3 that allows him to do this. And he definitely shows you dont need to swing out to right field and turn the toe down to hit a draw, because he works it left post impact as well as just about anyone and he plays a draw.

Festus,

Well Calvin Peete did just fine with that left arm! As far as your feeling from p3 to post impact, I think we are experiencing the same feelings. I tried to articulate something like that earlier when I responded to Dave. If I am slotting it well and getting it under plane at p3, then I am feeling a crunch in my right obliques. That deep slotting requires a commensurate response on the other side, so it feels very "natural" to tetter totter and rotate the left shoulder down and feel contraction in the left oblique. That move gives the feeling of the right shoulder working both up and out. Another opposing force.

Regarding weight, as I have privately told you the initial move from that p3 position creates a feeling of weightlessness as the club is ripped from the feeling of going down and behind or to the right of you to around and accross you. This is because that ripping move (which others have called pulling the sword from the stone or arrow from the quiver) creates some initial slack as the grip end of the club is moved faster initially, but then the clubhead catches up and I really feel the weight. But, of course, I am trying to resist that weight...I want to feel like the clubhead never lowers below the grip, I.e. retain wristcock. That last part is both the most rewarding and most difficult to do. When it is done...you know it...you can feel it...and the ball flight tells you that you have done something special. I can't get it yet with a driver...but maybe some day.

Squints Palledorous wrote:


PJ, hope you dont mind me posting some thoughts on this, its a great question. Be interested to see if Martin agrees with this:

The Jbar takeaway throws the club up the plane, with a lagging takeaway the club feels like it pulls the arms inside and up without any effort. The 64mil question is what now happens... if there is no containment, the club will bounce back down too soon and you're in trouble. I used to have this issue a lot.

With pressure back it becomes easier to hold it there but if you overdo it, the club goes static and how you've got to "add" with your arms or the body to reignite the engine. Not good either, you'll lose balance or get out of sequence.

So the nirvana is a free club that is pressured back floating up there like a little ball of flame waiting to be released. Your transition move releases it, but you continue to pressure back and up, knowing that when your body has got to where it needs to get to, the club will get below the hands and release on its own, and now its moving you not the other way round.

When I've succeeded with this, the backswing feels very long, slow and controlled (like a long left arm with a free club dangling off the end of it) and the downswing/release extremely short and essentially automatic.

It actually isnt that difficult to do once you've learnt that you dont need to force anything, and you've got the right structure. And the mishits are pretty reasonable. But you must absolutely commit to staying back, if you allow the arms down or forward, or move laterally, you break the automation and get in your own way.

Grady Dickens wrote:


This topic interests me very much. Threw me off for a looong time.

I think Hogan ain't lying when he said he rolled the face open as fast and as far as he can in the takeaway/BS. It is just that its not so obvious in videos. Why?

Because: (1) his tempo is very very fast; (2) his clubs are heavy; (3) his L shoulder goes down immediately and goes under his chin; (4) his R forearm lifts more vertically than many considering that he always had his R elbow pointed down; (5) he has a "slightly cocked club" already at setup... (not to be taken literally...)...and (6) his L hand goes away from the target and very inside immediately. All of these makes the clubhead elevate and looks like its opening very slow.

In any case, look at this video:



Look at the 00:02 mark in this video below where his hands passes his belt buckle. His L hand is already facing/palming the plane.

Don't disagree at all. I think he fanned it as soon as he could, but because of the things you mentioned and I mentioned above it didn't happen immediately. My main point in addressing Paul was addressing guys that roll it around immediately with their hands. They usually do it deliberately...don't have the forward press...don't have the tempo Hogan had...among other things.

Grady Dickens wrote:


Forward press? If at all I think that helps the roll. Sorta the roll/fanning started already because the hands went nearer the target and so the clubhead sorta gets a headstart in getting farther from the target.

Are you saying IYO Hogan didn't deliberately opened/fanned the clubface with his hands?

No I think he forward pressed or rocked his body from left foot to right, which caused a bit of drag loading,i.e grip moved before the clubhead, thus delaying the opening. That forward press also created some speed, which, as you said delayed the opening of the club.

Going out of town...don't know if I will have an internet connection...some images to ponder:

Grady Dickens wrote:


IMO that's not it, especially with irons.

It's the L shoulder going down and away from target. That pushes the L hand away from target, inside, and UP. If you just stand there and try to fan the face, it will over rotate. But if you fan the face with that L shoulder action, see what happens. Now add the R forearm elevating instead of remaining low at setup, and it will even make it even slower. Lastly, the "pre-cock"...no, not gonna tell...

Great pictures Grady, especially the tennis player, whoever that is.

Just looking at the picture it would seem that she is ripe for just falling backward on her ass. What is keeping her up. The other part is the racket and where it is entering from...shallow-flat, and from behind. Is it a thought with you consistent with the theme/discussion of hitting up on it feel. If the shoulders are going to start moving more up and around from that point, then the low racket will climb too, but contact will occur during the flat spot.

I see her with level shoulders getting ready to go. That's really a good picture, of course with the stone as a counter reference.

THE QUESTION IS...WHERE IS THE STONE LOCATED.

Festus knows, and so does Bilbo Baggins....We be buddies.

[quote="Festus" post=35103]Great pictures Grady, especially the tennis player, whoever that is.


THE QUESTION IS...WHERE IS THE STONE LOCATED.

The stone and sword are locked deep in a sub-forum in a faraway place. One must traverse through unknown and tangled dark forests and scorched baked valleys where minions of voices claim they know the way.

Beware ye who come upon this place with sword and stone, for ye leave a changed man.

The Naked Gun, Kill Bill, Austin Powers (That's a man, baby), and something do with the Arthur legend. Ponder them I shall.

Festus,

Too much in this post needs explanation. You say you know where the stone is located. Then you reference a character known for his association with the "Ring" and that you "be buddies" Previously you use the term, "Shallow flat and from behind"??? Is there something you are trying to tell us Festus?

ryan wrote:


Bilbo Baggins...hobbit...shallow...flat...behind...small...dwarf...festus you saying we must "dwarf" ourselves?..

The other pictures....kill bill and the tennis player...extensor action?

The bunting baseball player...the hands and wrist positions?

The sword in stone...only ONE can pull the sword...only HOGAN knows....

the Hobbits are getting restless, somebody cough up the answer.

the Hobbits are getting restless, somebody cough up the answer.

What? and spoil Grady's fun. C'mon Phily, you know how this works. Anyone over level 17 is sworn to secrecy at great risk of bodily harm for exposing secrets. But it is not in the dirt, it is under the dirt.

Didn't know if this was Hogan's bridge, or just a lazy hobbit cabin- either way, Bilbo won't be pulled lightly from his digs.

.....this one ain't gonna do it




but this guy a few posts above would probably be King of the Forest

I really like my initials there Festus......BH..much rather associate them with Ben Hogan than Bilbo's Home however

Okay my guess is the ballplayer represents address (not sure there)
Uma is takeaway
Tennis girl is letting the club go deep in transition
Sword in the stone is the load/force felt returning to impact from such a deep leveraged position...

Bilbo lives DEEP? in the ground.
Guys with initials BH load the club DEEP???

ok Festus, we'll play it your way. I'm going back to the forrest with my rifle in the meantime.

Not actually sure what Grady left on the table for us to rack our brains over, but fun nonetheless Phily.

The ball player would probably be post-impact would be my view, with the L shoulder way behind and the bat staying stable and the right arm saved. The non roll-over flippy-do, does feel like a bunt of sorts, but it is just the club going with the body.

Uma Thurman may be secret code for containment during the backmove.

The tennis player is bringing the racket from, as Steve P states, deep from behind her.

When pulling Bilbo from his home's entrance, provided we have our backs facing the hobbit hole, the load is behind us and pulling it out takes some effort, and since the hole opening would be a shade to the right of us, bowing to the line of pull is required. Right shoulder initially assisting high at that point would be a 'tug'...so the R shoulder would need to be lower for a 'pull' first, then a tug. Just like the tennis player almost. Ripping that racket from behind her increases her knee flex and is loaded quite nicely against the ground to handle the handle.

Will have to wait on Grady now, to see what's up.

That's about my guess too -

1C
2D
3B
4A

(If that's not it, then I have no idea what - Bunt, Cunt, Grunt, Lump is supposed to mean.)

phily wrote:


Phily,

I really like your approach with the two tables. Here's my guess using your 1-4 and A-D:

1 - A (Pulling the sword from the stone represents laying the club off and finding the slot)
2 - D (Tennis player represents delivering the club from very deep and shallow)
3 - B (Bunter with saved right arm represents impact)
4 - C (The leading edge of the sword represents the clubshaft being driven up the plane post impact instead of being thrown out to the target - the difference between cutting something in half v. stabbing it with the point)

mh