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It's a good point about the clubhead not moving at transition while everything else initiates then starts toward impact.

Golf is a game of feel. If you have this clubhead delay, it gives your brain quite a bit of extra time to feel the spacial awareness of the clubhead AND the clubface and a good player can intuitively make any last second corrections much easier than if the clubhead just starts down the instant any change if direction takes place.

I have always felt this when I have been playing my best especially in competition. It's one of the real secrets of the game.

The superslotting move that I have been working on myself in the last year or so.... and also been sharing with some of the students that are interested in attempting it, is really powerful stuff...not just in concept but in practical application.

I've heard fellow pros call it "The God" move. It's not easy to learn, and completely counter intuitive to what one would think should happen, and the feel is extremely bizarre when first attempted. I literally spent a month topping, shanking, skulling shots.. and had to get a net to hit into because looking at those shots being hit was not too positive. However, the solid connects where definitely something special. A different sound, flight and intensity, as well as picking up considerable distance.

It took me about 6 months before I could harness the spacial awareness triggers to execute it consciously to properly hit shots and demonstrate it without it "coming and going".

The goal for me now is to implement it so that I don't know how NOT to do it.. regardless of how hard I try.
I call that swing DNA... when you really own it.




I started working from here early on... exploring the possibilities of forearm rotation through transition.
In the past I would often lose distance by flattening my swing, but by applying the superslotting protocols, I was actually able to gain distance by going flatter. It really confirmed why I left TGM concepts behind years ago and brought light to the difficulty and problematic situations that TGM forces one into.

John, do you have any thoughts about your impact position (2nd pic on the down line) as it seems your both arms are straight and your shoulder line about square or even bit closed.

Is that what you try to achieve or something you'd like to change?

phily wrote:


That's not how Hogan layed it off. That is just delaying the end of max L arm/forearm rotation and timing it exactly to be completed in transition. A compensation for steepening the shaft. You need to time that exactly. How would you do that with the turn of the hips and L side ext at the same time?

Not trying to get off topic here, as an in depth discussion of my golf swing is probably not appropriate on this thread, but as far as my impact position, it's the frame after that that is key and tells the real story. My shoulders are pretty square on this shot at impact, but the range of motion to the next frame shows how they have picked up speed significantly or what i would call post impact pivot acceleration. I see no reason why I would want to have my shoulders wide open right at impact. Saving the rotation as long as possible is good as long as the torso fires hard through and beyond impact. This is how you hold shaft flex and compress the golf ball with a pivot driven strike and active forearm rotation. You can walk up and down any driving range in the world and see lots of hackers with shoulders wide open at impact. That is not the goal of a proper golf swing.
Most hackers will have open shoulders at impact and then they don't have anywhere to go because they have spent all their energy too soon so the whole thing just stalls, the club flips or cuts across the line with an arm throw. You have to keep everything moving and accelerating through and beyond impact. If you think the swing is over once the ball leaves the clubface you are heading down a dark wormhole.

As far as Hogan I don't try to swing like Ben Hogan. I apply many of the same concepts, but I don't grip it like Hogan, I don't address the ball like Hogan, I don't waggle like Hogan, I don't try to make the lateral hip slide while keeping the hips closed, rather I prefer more of Snead's approach because my body will not do that and it would be too tempting to transfer weight too soon left which I absolutely don't want to do. I don't finish like Hogan.

As far a laying the club off.. in general, it's proper conceptually if other things are lined up after you do that. Laying the shaft off is increasing forearm rotation which increases the range of motion the clubhead is going to travel without having to increase arm travel significantly so the golf swing can feel short and compact but is actually long and powerful. Also, as mentioned before, it gives a player the time delay to feel transition and make any last split second adjustments before the club starts it's move down to flush the golf ball. Knowing what I know now, I can't imagine not wanting to do this in the golf swing. As far as how Hogan did it.. well, he did it... so did Knudson, Gary Player, Frank Phillips, Sergio, Nick Price, Byron Nelson, Faldo, Chi Chi, Calvin Peete, Moe Norman.. I could go on and on.

Anyway, back to the great strikers!

John Erickson wrote:


I totally agree that acceleration, but for me the orientation of the right elbow is big mark of what Hogan, Snead and many other greats were doing.

Open shoulders with straight arms are about worst I can think and it's mark of stalling. Instead of that I think open shoulders with bent right elbow and bent right wrist is the key for acceleration.

But as we all know you got great swing and you have proven it at the highest level in tournaments. I'm just still hunting the solution how to get to that impact position that great names had because what I have seen, even from real good ball strikers here, are way similar what you got and only two are close to Hogan or those others.

I also see strong connection between forearm rotation to that elbow position as for me it seem impossible to have that rotation together with elbow close to the body even after impact.

I think Jackie Burke commented in a couple places about his father having people throw clubs.
Sevam mentioned once about casting.
To me Snead and all those guys got that impact of necessity because they were hitting very hard. I think of the two handed basketball toss. Also the tennis stroke.
The better you get at swinging something the more you will get that onemotion and that little loop in tennis or in golf.
When you throw a ball the sequence is automatic.
The better you are at throwing the later the implement is thrown.
To me the sequence happens when the intent is correct.
Obviously if shoulders are a bit open at impact player has brought more rotation force to the ball.
I am not talking throw the head at it that's not it IMO.
I do think its interesting that most of the pro baseball players that are great golfers too are pitchers.
Hogan mentioned throwing a heavy ball.. I think if you are a talented athlete with intent for max power and you understand the club and the angle to approach impact and you put all your available force into the shot you will end up like that or similar at impact. Its very very athletic movement to put your whole body into it that way. I am not sure many have sufficient athleticism to do it that way.
I don't think its some secret method to me it looks like guys who grew up with flat heavy clubs in their hands who were great athletes and competed with one another to hit FAR.
You just don't get like those guys without sufficient athleticism IMO.

I would be careful focusing too much on "positions because the golf swing is a moving flowing dynamic action that is not about positions. The positions are created by the flow of movement. Snapshots of what is going on.... but never try to get into a position because just the thought of that means you are seeking something stagnant. Nothing wrong with "how do I get from here to there" in a powerful and efficient manner.


For example if you want to "see" a bent right arm at impact and beyond the answer is NOT in the right arm. You have to think through that. Ask yourself, "how can swing the club in a way that the right arm will have no motivation to extend or throw out toward right field?" Or ask yourself "why would I want to keep flex or bend in the right arm?" I know why, and came to that conclusion through the back door.

When you work on your technique, always remember that any "change" at a minimum is going to be two things because any one thing is going to affect other things.

Another example, why would you want to keep your right foot firm on the ground through impact?
To help delay the application of power? Do you have the ability to apply power later?
Is this a bracing point or a push off point?
Is it driving or resisting?
What is the opposing force here?
What am I sacrificing or gaining?
Is this to increase velocity? acceleration or create stability through connectiveness or internal cohesion or simply to aid in stabilizing lowpoint?

Trying to lag the club like Hogan is a bad idea for most. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.
I can lag it to make it "look" like Hogan in "Power Golf" but I can also jump off a 20 story building with no net below. You have to be able to catch it on the other side and have the structure so the net doesn't break and splinter everything into pieces.

Everything comes down to what I call P3 to P4.. or where the shaft is parallel to the ground before and after impact.

I figured out that the flatter you can get the shaft at P3, the harder you can fire everything and eliminate the left side of the golf course. This also requires flat lie angles to match. I figured out that the heavier the clubhead, the more efficient the transfer of energy from the club to the ball... the better and deeper it will compress for any given swing speed. The more I swing from my core, the more I can handle more mass in the clubhead because the big muscles driving my rotation are not going to be slowed down much by me adding another ounce of dead weight to the golf club. If I am swinging with my arms and hands only... then yes.. it makes a big difference. Then of course your shafts need to be able to support additional weight, and I am at a point I can no longer find shafts stiff enough for a 14 1/2 ounce persimmon driver moving 108 miles an hour. I am having to make my own shafts now. Then of course I never want to lose shaft flex prior to impact as a hitter.
This all aids further in minimizing post impact premature closing of the clubface. I try to never lose sight of these critical imperative protocols for my golf swing.

My goal is to hit the ball dead straight every time. Position the ball down either side of the fairway or down the middle. Keep my approach shot into the green below the hole and never EVER miss a green long and left.
I find I play better without using yardages, much better if I just know the course. Too many other factors to rely upon yardage only. I pick my club based more upon trajectory and hit my shot as if I am lag putting. I feel the distance before I execute ... no different that chipping or putting. I don't use yardages for chipping or putting.
My long distance eye sight is very keen (although I can't hardly read a menu anymore lol) and it is it's own skill set that is now overlooked and forgotten in the modern game. VERY empowering to be able to trust your instinct. I remember being on tour and asking my caddy... "are we sure we have this yardage right?" and then taking that doubt into my golf swing when I would strike the shot often with very undesirable results. The key is to swing confidently with great definitive intention. Do I always get it right on distance, yes, almost always when I am on... but in general not always.. nor do you or anyone of the tour players. Just turn on the TV and watch how poor their distance control is considering they supposedly have all the perfect information, pin sheets and so on. They are playing robotically and it shows. If I am off on distance.. I try to learn from what I did not get right. The wind? my lie? elevation? trajectory? the release of the ball on the ground? the intensity of the strike? To play great golf you have to feel this game... from the inside out.. not just select the club from a yardage and hit the ball thinking about swing positions.

" ...the golf swing is a moving flowing dynamic action that is not about positions..."

OOh....I like quizzes!

Another example, why would you want to keep your right foot firm on the ground through impact?

Turning within it, and on top of it, to keep shaft on plane to find same address angle.

To help delay the application of power? Do you have the ability to apply power later?

Yes, the power is just starting coming into the on plane axis of the shaft, due to the opposing vectors.

Is this a bracing point or a push off point?

Bracing.

Is it driving or resisting?

Resisting.

What is the opposing force here?

Left side clearing, especially shoulder girdle, with arms pinned inward as forearms rotate, and hands fire.

What am I sacrificing or gaining? Is this to increase velocity? acceleration or create stability through connectiveness or internal cohesion or simply to aid in stabilizing lowpoint?

Internal cohesion and lowpoint go together within the process.

Festus grade: A-

Oh hell, may as well go for an A+ instead.

Moe Norman said once, " I am the only golfer to not have any creases in my right shoe."

Pretty enlightening statement if one thinks about it.

I don't suspect many fine ballstrikers do either.

John,

Appreciate you comments here. I think it is refreshing for an instructor to be honest and say he doesn't swing like Hogan. Most won't let go of that dream, but none swing like him.

Festus,

Wow, I had never heard that statement from Moe. Love it. You get "extra credit!"

Just because...

I am reading another thread here about a 170 yard 9 iron. I have heard about 190 yard 8 irons on another thread. Really? I hit my 9 iron 140 yards, but I hit a modern frying pan 290-310. So by my rough estimates a 170 yard 9 iron would equate to a 400 yard driver. I don't beleive it. I think it is exaggeration, and symbolic of what has gone terribly wrong with the game. As John so eloquently said golf is a game of precision and feel. You have to feel exactly how far to hit the shot. It matters not what club you hit the required distance. Maybe the game has passed me by, but I doubt it. That 290-310 would put me in good stead on tour. I guess the 170 9 iron guys could blow it by DJ and the rest.

Phew.

I like that you can have a straightish right arm at impact. That means more level shoulders, more compression, and an easier time turning level left from there on in my simple mind.

Been having these feels lately of the right big toe clawing and resisting into impact and the lower body bracing while the upper turns over it. Hit it ver solid that way with an extra 10-15 yards over what I was expecting.

John, have you ever tried a nunchuk shaft? It doesn't flex much at all, and it is heavy and counterbalanced which means you need to load the club head up with wieght to get it to d-1,2ish. I had to put 10 gr of hot melt in head of my driver. Like I said before it doesn't flex much at all.

Grady, I have a colleague who can hit 9i 170, I've stood next to him at the range and watched it. Trouble is, put anything longer than a 5i in his hands and he'll duck hook it or block it 50 miles right. Moral of the story is that you are correct, iron distances matters fig all unless you can also hit it straight.

Guys who CAN hit irons long and HIGH have a big advantage IMO. When you see the likes of Adam Scott or Rory bombing it far and stopping it quick, that makes a big difference.

For mere mortals, to me the goal with an iron is always accuracy first. I personally hit a lot of 3/4 shots with irons and those are often my best ones. Controlling height and spin also key cos its damn windy where I live (Melbourne). But other than that, matters not if you're hitting 8 or 6.

Dave,

I suspect a lot of these 170 yard 9 irons are really hit with a lot of forward shaft lean and an effective 7 iron loft. Better to have a shallow divot and use the true loft of the tool in your hand.

Don't need to add forward shaft lean when the manufacturers add it for you.

Latest Taylormade junk Rocketballz Max irons specs.

No wonder they only sell you 4 iron and up.

3 iron would be at 16-17 degrees. 2 iron would be your 3wood. 1-iron your driver.

9 iron has the loft of an 8 iron and length of an 8 iron. Throw in the superlight higher COG with even the slightest of proper shaft lean and you got a 7 iron equivalent that goes 170 yds. Yep, "9 iron" that goes 170 yards, about right then.

I knew there was something up with those when I hit my brothers TaylorMade 7iron 200 yds consistently when my 7iron would only go 170. Marketers doing their "innovating".

Don't worry though, they got an AP to sell you to fill the gap between PW and SW. Extra though. Then when you can't get that 4 iron up (2-iron of yesteryear), they will sell you a hybrid.






Taylormade Club Spec link

John Erickson wrote:


I totally agree about both of those, but positions are marks of action and body parts relations and to find those relations has been my main work for more than 7 years now.

I understand quite well what kind of movements are needed to get those positions as I have explained in my many videos representing those isolated movements. What I wonder is that I have seen some tour players and low handicap players who has tried to achieve those movements for a long time but they just don't manage to do it whatever they try.

What is on my mind is that how big part of that is flexibility and other physical factors and right kind of strength? How much of it is our body type and joints and how much is the result of practice? I got myself big problems in my right shoulder and scapula area, but I'm able to show those moves in slow speed, but no way I could get it in full speed and it seems to be the case with many people. Is it about subconscious reaction to still bring the face to the ball by arms?

Lot of open questions where I try to find the answers to be able to help players I work with. One help could be to know that some kind of body type just can't get it done because they got no ROM enough for that even if they try to get better flexibility.

Here is once more the positions I mean and having attention at right elbow



And Kyle Stanley also

Guess I didn't quote Moe precisely...wrinkles, creases, same great way of him describing something. He has some great ways of saying things instead of looking at his action, listen to what he says and really think about it.

I think he also says in another video about divots...."I'm just going to remove a little dirt." A remarkable way of really describing steep versus shallow approaches....or as I say: take some grass, but leave the roots. I was now going to seque into a Grass Roots tune, but seemed a little corny so not today said the seque. Anyhoo...starting at 5:24 are his comments about foot pressures.

Jason,

You are spot on in your assessment of the Nunchuk! However, by whose standards do we call it HEAVY? Mine is 94 grams.These clubmakers are calling these new lightweight shafts STIFF ??? I don't think so !!!!!
The Nunchuk weighs approx. one ( 1 ) ounce more! The flex in a Nunchuk is up towards the middle of the shaft where flex should be, not in the tip like the standards in your golf shop! That is a major key to your directional factor and I expect you can attest to that.
I can't imagine why ANY serious player would play with anything else.

Regards,

Lane

Tapio Santala wrote:


Tapio,

Who are all the players in your elbow photo?

Lane Holt wrote:


Out of respect to Grady this will be the last post about the nunchuk, but I will answer answer your question. Modern graphite shafts on the heavy end are around 85g. Miyazaki shafts are around 60g., so compared to that they are heavy. I don't like to feel kick or flex in the shaft when I'm swinging. Kick can add height to your shot, but not length. So why not add height with the loft of your club, that way you don't have to count on timing shaft flex.That's my philosopy anyway. I hit a modern driver just the other day "stiff flex" and it was the wierdest feeling once you get used to really stiff shafts. It always comes down to how straight you can hit it never how far.

Apparently I am not up to date. Why the last post about the Nunchuk ?

Your statement is absolutely correct . I *ditto * your message, but why not pass on your knowledge so others can improve their game ?
Have you tried the 370 Hybrid ? It is something special and priced lower !


Thanks,

Lane

Lane

Ben Hogan Swing Project wrote:


One name missing but from left to right:

Furyk, Quiros, Hogan, Sabatini, ? , Hogan, Mahan, Hogan, Rory and Toms.

Ans as said in separate photo it's Kyle Stanley.

As John eloquently pointed out focusing on a position is not a fruitful endeavor. So looking at impact with guys that have a bent right arm is not particularly useful...you need to see from p3 to p4 to really know what dynamics are at play. Still, if you know what to look for, you can know what came before and what will come. Looking at Tapio's pics, some are much better than others. Which ones are good and which ones are not so good?