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(I'm not responding to the Peter Senior bunker shot so much because I think Grady's intentions we're pretty clear when he requested it and the detraction posted was just done for trolling purposes)

Here's some thoughts, (but anyone with more experience please edit / chime in).

weight must be put into the rear foot in transition because it is being used as a pivot.
transition is ending around hands reaching waist (general) and impact release is beginning.
analog scales reading the pressure 'load' on rear foot perhaps would not react or recover fast enough to the read the resulting slide during a photo, and the slide is dragging thereby still exerting some pressure. So depending on the unique transition of the player it could momentarily lighten near 'the drop from the top' then increase into a more powerful pivot 'load' than other players. That more powerful rear pivot could fulfill it's purpose more efficiently or quicker depending on tempo(?) i.e. be 'spent' and so allow it's slide/drag phase to begin sooner. But we're talking factions of seconds.
As far as player 'feel v real' goes, it would be sort of the opposite to the scales 'lag' because 'intent' is convincing us that all our weight is already on the left.
As far as usefulness goes, using that pivot pressure in transition, the analog scales are correct.


gif below would show end of Transition & beginning of second pivot.
*note right heel when hands are at top of screen. + (edit) and as Drew points out below - the syncing of the hands with left heel planting / left toes rising through impact.
Though Norman doesn't seem to lift his rear heel as high as others, what Bradley mentioned about Knudson, a few pages back, comes to mind - "we also see as the left heel hits the ground the right heel goes up to balance."

here's the version I tried to replace the first upload with but image servers were down fwiw slight timming change

In the norman gif - notice the left toes move up in sync with the hands ?

Good clue there.

Hogan gifs show the same thing.

snagged from the Dirt Glossary - (not sure yet about supination labeling with regards to feet / ankles so lets just think of the left foot as 'bowing' with the left hand)

Re the R foot pressuring stuff, if you THINK pressure the R "ankle" during transition instead of thinking transfer all weight to L foot, it will be too late. You won't get the Greg Norman and Ben Hogan R foot behavior. Nor will you achieve that behavior if you don't pronate the R lower leg bones. J an HO from this hacker...rofl

if you have to transfer it to the Left then you already had pressure going down into your right foot / ankle, so it would be during this time, that you have pressure on your rear foot, that is of interest.
this earlier moment may be where you want to look.

phily wrote:


In BS there really is pressure/weight on the R foot's ball and inside ankle. As I've said, I really pronate my R foot (turn the lower leg bones CCW), sorta I cup my R foot instead of supinate it. So its pronated. On top, its still there. But when you transition, it gets off there, sort of pushes OFF the ball of the R foot. So it gets OFF the R foot, not pressure it down more, much less the ankle. This is the only way IMO where you can turn as early as possible. So faster clubhead speed.

Again, IMHO (H=Hacker's..lol), pressuring down the r ANKLE is just a compensation for a too level shoulder turn in transition, in particular the R shoulder, that makes the L arm and hands and club jut OUT instead of down inside the wall that Bradley talked about. In other words, if you are moving the shoulders vertically inside the wall anyway, firing the hips won't make them hit the wall. Anyway, the hips are moving target wards via L side extension anyway, so hitting the wall is impossible. Again, IMHO, the problem is hitting the ground. This can be solved. Difficult to figure out anyway, if not impossible. I didn't by myself. I had help. So I am not claiming to discover anything. Just sharing as this might help anybody.

By the way, what Moehogan is saying all along is NECESSARY if you have to get the L arm, hands and club down inside that wall if you are gonna turn your hips and extend the L side...

Moehogan thumbs up to you.

Fantastic

Well, I would argue the shoulders ARE NOT turning during transition as mentioned above. They do a smidge, just a fraction, but not nearly as much as one would think and does not cause the club to "jut out", because the club is lowering with an open forearm. The shoulders are however, both as a package, remaining fully loaded and lowering more than they are turning while in marriage with the knees-legs receiving the lowering into the ground.

Think of it this way perhaps. Take a Phillips head screw driver and screw a Phillips screw as tight as one can into a 2X4 piece of wood. The pressure to do so is going CW and down ( backswing ) into the wood ( ground ). Now how do we let go of the pressure once fully tightened ( removing the screw )?. Must apply alot of pressure down first into the wood ( ground ) and into the screw head....and then turn left or CCW. If one simply turns the screw driver to the left without the down pressure the tool would strip the head.

The shoulders go down during transition more so than turning on their way to delivery.

phily wrote:
This is where I think everyone gets lost in all the minutia,of these different moves and assigning all these different body parts these assignments during a 1 second golf swing,its obvious that Mr Senior has an image/thought of how hes trying to strike the ball and his body and body parts respond to that .

Alan,

That is one of the reasons I try to stay away from scientific terms, and why I plead with others to post their swing so I can put a visual with what they are describing they do. Our mind is perfectly capable of processing a complex movement such as a golf swing, whether it takes 1 second or even less, but it does it subconsciously on a level I don't understand. Our brain needs an image, which produces a "feel" and we then seek that feel as we swing with our intentions. I try very hard to describe feels I have in great detail and in different ways hoping those feels will translate into something of use to someone else.

The use of non golf imagery is very helpful to me, and, in this regard, Festus is very, very helpful. Maybe there is something in the grass out there in Kansas.

Found this last night and I see some application to how we learn to use our legs in ABS, perfectly demonstrated by Peter Senior. I wonder if there is some "trapping" of the club via creation of a wind tunnel created by the squeezing of the legs inward through the strike...just sayin:

Wow Grady. Cool that mentioning Bernoulli earlier led you to find out more about it and a video to post...

I know that there is a bit of a movement to try to keep to some fairly plain discussion but none the less if people want to find out more about the scientific principles related to golf balls they should google things like "Reynolds numbers", "Magnus force" and "wake deflection force". Won't teach you much about swinging golf clubs but you will find out more about why golfballs are designed as they are why they behave as they do in flight.

I think perhaps a "The Science of Golf" topic would be worth creating. If anyone is interested, let's do that. Perhaps even a related Group would be good.

MM

alan wrote:

These would be 'awarenesses' or drills or techniques to work on in practice. (or discuss in a forum). Doubtful there's ever been a decent golfer that didn't develop their swing over time using trial & error of the most detailed moves & thoughts.
Sénior Senior had obviously worked very hard on his swing getting to where he is shown on camera playing at the top level - he had already 'organized' & drilled these assignment details into what we are seeing, becoming so deeply familiar with them that could modify his swing for all the different lies after assessing them and produce great results.

---------------------------------------------------

(edit) - most of these 'scientific' examples being discussed here are at the level of what any of us, or our kids today, would have learned or been exposed to in high school or below. when they are offerd up all anyone is doing it trying to say is "see it's sort of like that". it's hard not to escape using science terminology or examples living in a modern world. doesn't anyone see the absudity of asking to avoid using 'scientific' terminoloy while sitting in front of a computer? people are just talking - and at that, usually bending over backwards to explain.

Grady Dickens wrote:


What's the message? To make the R foot drag towards the L foot I have to pass gas?...lol

SVSV,

That may not be a bad idea...I always heard Crenshaw say (I am sure from Penick) that he imagined a coin being pinched between his butt checks through impact.

Phily, you are right. I just don't want to get into all of those scientific terms for what the wrists do, what the bones are called, etc... I am just more right side of the brain...and get much more out of visualizing. So the demonstration of bernoulli principle was much more useful to me than a statement of what it is. And I could relate what I saw to what I feel in my golf swing.

Back to Peter Senior and the notion that the golf swing happens so fast. That kind of goes to practice. Do you always practice with a ball in front of you? Or do you practice in the backyard working on a feel and watching contact with the ground. When you hit balls do you always care where they go or do you work on a feel without regard to where the ball goes? Do you work on a feel to get an extreme ball flight and then work back from there or add another piece once you are consistently hitting it a certain way? For example, I think I mentioned that I will try to start a practice session hitting it right to right. I want to make sure I have it slotted deep and am approaching from the inside on a shallow angle with an open clubface. I want to be patient. Then I will start to work my intention to the other side...post impact.

Grady Dickens wrote:


Eeeewww...lol...I always smile when my kids say that...lol

Better one would be to fark your inside L thigh...fark yourself...lol...an excellent source told me this is the reason why Mr. Hogan loves practicing so much....ROFL!

Sorry Mr. Hogan, no disrespect at all....just for laughs...

When yall look at Mr Seniors swing,what do you think,his thought or image is.I believe he has an image in his brain of how he wants to apply the club to the ball pre-impact ,impact,and post impact.and these images thoughts make his feet,hips,shoulders etc,perform on auto pilot,,,,yr right to right grady does that for you.

the problem most high handicappers have is they dont have the proper imaging or visualization of how to apply the club,clubface,they dont understand how the tool is supposed to be used.if you took a wrench and tried to use it like a screwdriver,and thought thats they way it should be used,you see the problem,,,,,,Yall should be focusing on changing the average golfers understanding of the implement and the physics behind that

The difficulty of learning someones method of striking the ball,is your not them,so much of the success these people have found in striking the ball are thier internal thoughts and images and feels.they can teach the mechanics with great succces,and the feels with some succcess,but what makes their swing so good and the great ballstrikers swings so good and reliable is it belongs to them and is based on their internal feels thoughts,they dug it out of the dirt,so to speak,No two people are alike,do the great ballstrikers have things,mechanically in common,of course they do,but they all took different paths to get there.

Yes Alan we all have to make our swing OUR OWN, but to say the commonality can't be taught and passed down is ludicrous. I am sure you are not suggesting that each of us just start from ground zero and figure it out alone. In order to learn we need to watch those that have come before and listen to what they say. If we do that we can deduce commonalities among them that match commonalities in their swings. There are many ways to swing the club, and you have to figure out what you are and whether you like what you are. If you do, then you have an advantage and you can focus in on good players that swing similarly. If not, you have to relearn the type of swing you seek rather than have, which will take more effort, but can be done. Think Nick Faldo. Once you zero in on a swing method, you will find that the "feels" among the practitioners are very similar.

Now some folks just can't cope with making a change, and that is fine. Making a change in your swing is a big commitment and you have to endue getting worse before you get better. Those folks can focus on working on timing and scoring with the swing motion they have. Others just want to use the word "natural" and post over and over again about the swing being "natural."

This thread isn't for those folks.

Tons to see here.

Tons to see here




might as well add this one for reference