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thats correct. 9 grams you are talking about would add very subtle bias tho, you are unlikely to even notice it unless you are an exceptional ballstriker.

phily wrote:

anton wrote:


If you compare the COG of equivalent era (1960s- early and late) Wilson and Hogan iron clubheads...Hogan kept the COG in his designs higher and nearer the hosel than the Wilson designers...it would appear to be a conscious design factor in his irons ...do not believe that he did not look at what Sam was playing

It is pretty late in the design timeline of Hogan clubheads that the COG even approaches the centre of the grooved area of the clubface....all interesting stuff for a guy who wanted to limit/control the clubhead closing...

JesseV wrote:


No, no, no! But what I have quoted about the role of the hands and hands leardership from the great players such as Henry Cotton, Sam Snead, and even Ben Hogan is enough. I have also quoted from the two of the greatest teachers of this old game Ernest Jones and Percy Boomer. If you have not study them, you certainly do NOT know what golf instruction, instructors, and swing gurus are all about!

Cy wrote:


Cy - I was talking to Lane, not you!

As far as I'm concerned Lane has brought nothing to this discussion except to promote one instructors theory incessantly, over and over again. To the point its rather boorish and tiresome.

So - I was not talking to you, Cy. In fact I like what you have had to say about footwork and using the whole body to swing the club. I believe you and Bradley can pretty much agree in those areas of the swing, along with everyone else. Now how to accomplish that may be a horse of another color. You do provide other knowledge and I don't discredit what you have to say. And I would certainly always try to learn something from Snead or Henry Cotton or Old Tom Morris even.

I'm not going to get into it with you about using the hands and hitting vs swinging. I and many others are here to learn hitting and not swinging and will disagree on which may be better for us and nothing is going to change either of our minds.

If I believe in what Bradley is teaching than that is up to me to learn what he has to say, apply it to my game and see what happens. Its not up to you to decide for me or anyone else what is best for our game or who we wish to learn it from. Or what we wish to learn. I know from TGM that hitting is a simpler, way to swing the club. Is it the best? For me I believe it is and you won't change my mind about that.

Now I never rule out anyone as a swing guru or coach based on how their philosophy does or does not suit me. If I don't want to learn from someone I just don't follow them or try to learn what they teach. Does that make them poor instructors or not knowledgeable concerning the golf swing? No! Just means for the time its not for me. Everyone who has studied the golf swing can bring something to the table and add something to everyone's knowledge of the golf swing, when and or how we may choose to use that knowledge is up to us.

I like many others are here because we are trying to improve and we like what Bradley is teaching. Does mean another instructor is right or wrong? No! Just because I am trying to learn from Bradley doesn't mean I don't watch Sevam1's videos and learn something, doesn't mean I can't learn from Lynn Blake or Elk or Butch Harmon or from you for that matter. At this time though I am trying to keep it simple and learn what I can and apply it to my game. If I feel Bradley's teaching is improving my game than thats me and you don't control who I learn from or what I learn for that matter.

Cy, I have read some of your other posts in other forums and you usually provide some useful nugget of knowledge, however, Lane is a pain in the bum.

Ad to be honest with you Cy, you can be sometimes as well. When you provide good ideas and things to think about, I appreciate what you bring to the discussion. Now if you just want to be a pain, I can't stop you on that, but I can tune you out and thats kinda sad really because you do provide some nuggets of knowledge that are worth thinking about and writing to permanent memory.

Seriously, folks (esp. Cy and Lane)...

What Bradley has been posting for the last seven months since he's been on the site HAS HELPED GOLFERS GET BETTER. Ask those who have been on his program. I don't think you can argue with that.

Another thing that MUST be understood is that hickory clubs, from Ernest and Percy's days, are COMPLETELY different animals than modern steel-shafted clubs. Hickory shafts torque. Plain and simple. Any conscious "hit" motion with a hickory club would cause the shaft to torque all over the place and the clubface could point any which way at impact. So yes, with a hickory club, a swinging motion would result in a more consistent shot pattern.

Fast forward to steel clubs, though, and that's no longer the case. Steel has close to zero torque. That means we could now afford to use the club differently. We could use the lower body more to create speed and pressure in the shaft without fear of it torquing all over the place. You can HIT the ball rather than let it get in the way.

Granted, there are plenty of steel-shaft players who use a free swinging motion. Like Phil Mickelson, for example. Sure, he's a great golfer. But he's a prime example of how inconsistent "free swinging" can be in terms of accuracy in the age of steel.

Also, we have to be careful that we don't misquote people to suit our own ideas. Sam Snead saying "The grip is everything" has ZERO to do with whether or not he was a hitter or a swinger. He simply means that if your grip ain't good, you're not going to hit good shots no matter what you do.

And I'll leave us with a quote from George Knudson, arguably as good a ballstriker as Hogan and Moe:

"The hands do nothing except maintain a firm hold on the golf club."

JesseV wrote:


Absolutely no question about Bradley's playing and teaching abilities!
On swinging vs hitting, how do you take the club to the top? Do you "swing", "hit", or "pick up"?
How do you start the transition and the downswing? Easy, smooth, hard, or rush?

Once you have started your downswing, then there is no time for you to change your impact condition in any way.

Now can you tell me how a "hitter" does his backswing and starts his downswing? Is it any different than a "swinger"?

Timothy Goynes wrote:


Tim thanks for the Knudson quote. His instruction book is a classic especially his focus on balance and pivot.
However if your hands do nothing except a firm hold on the golf club you will be struggling near and on the green for the rest of your life! But you could always be a swing guru and teach!

Bradley,

I've always had a handsy swing, especially through impact, which has caused me no end of troubles. You've talked about forearm rotation, and there is no question the forearms do rotate in the swing, no debate on that.

I'm trying to develop a feeling that does not rely on my hands to rotate the club through impact. You had posted a picture of yourself working on shoulder and forearm rotation through impact and that is a feeling I am trying to work on. That is if I understand you correctly.

Is that what you are talking about when you talk about forearm rotation through impact?

JesseV wrote:


I wonder what would happen here if his arms would be rotated

sorry for double post

Bradley Hughes wrote:


I may have misunderstood the drill Bradley was performing but here is one post where he discusses forearm/wrist rotation.

This is where I feel the hands cause the rotation and I a beginning to think I should feel the forearm/wrist drive the rotation.

Cy wrote:


Cy - Again you make me think.

I've already decided my motion and how I will hit the ball before I even address the little white pill. So there is no decision to be made at any point in the swing process as to what process I'll be using to bash the bejesus out of that damnable little white ball, I have already worked that out long before.

I don't swing the club back I take it back. And I don't think there is a difference when taking the club back between a hitter and swinger, or if there is I ain't that fir advanced for yuns!

I already posted how TGM defines hitting and swinging.

Jesse,

Thanks for your reply. Classy stuff !

Regards,

Lane

if you want to control cg why would you want to do it with distributing the weight to the hosel if you can take that same weight and place it for more precise cg control on the head itself ? think about this. the long hosel came as necessity then as tradition thats all there is to it, well, that and its more beautiful aesthetically especially in wedges. Ben Hogan wanted higher cg for lower ball flight and as close to the hosel cg as possible for workability. the workability bit is a marketing term used to this day and what it really means is that by moving cg horizontally you can have certain amount of face angle bias at impact. you got to realize that with this type of design we are not talking about shutting the face closed as much as modern "game improvement" design would do, far from it. if you look at modern muscle back blades many of them have cg slightly off the center of the face and towards the heel too so that didnt disappear completely. the reason being twofold and its workability and tradition because people who buy muscle back blades generally expect cg a bit closer to the heel and resulting workability bias as thats how its always been for them. they also expect just a bit more tolerance and room for error without compromising workability much as nobody likes shanks. your comment on Ben Hogan wanting to "limit/control the clubhead closing" doesnt make sense to me. Ben Hogan had exceptional club face control due to the very mechanics Bradley is talking about in this thread. pay attention to his setup and grip and what is happening to his club face thru impact area as result of said mechanics and presets, account for his ball position and his swing path and the fact that his stock shot was a fade. also keep in mind that he developed all that with clubs that were behaving that way long before he started making his own. if you can connect the dots it should make sense to you.

Golfbulldog wrote:

Jesse,
FYI,
TGM Swinging is a Pull.
TGM Hitting is a Push.
Homer Kelley said Swinging was easier. "You can practically swing and fall asleep".
Hitting is not defined by the use of the big muscles, but the active use of the Right Arm (Power Accumulator #1), specifically the Right Tricep, to accelerate the Left Arm and Clubshaft, know as the Primary Lever Assembly.
In an Uncompensated Stroke, both do indeed use different takeaways because of the Loading Action.

Drew
A.I. TGM

Drew Chapman wrote:


Hey Drew,

I remember you from Lynn's site.

I do remember Swinging is a pull and hitting is a push. I couldn't remember quite how hitting was described but I knew it required using the right arm or right side to complete. Thanks for reminding me.

As I remember though, and correct me if I'm wrong, that swinging requires more timing and more maintenance than hitting.

Whats also interesting, as Bradley has said, and I know Lynn and Ted Forte as well, they have all said that they can swing or hit, its just what is better for them or what they prefer to do, swinging or hitting. As for me I am right side dominate, so for me, hitting is easier.

Hi JesseV.

While Bradley is away grilling game from the outback on the ol' barbeque, I would like to chime in here just a touch.

TGM hitting and what Bradley teaches is different. TGM hitting is basically-simply a drive load situation radially with the right arm. Although there is radial thrust with Bradley's as well, there is also longitudinal going on as well at the same time through the zone....pushing and pulling at the same time via strong rotary pivot: advanced stuff primarily predicated on forearm use and holding the freakin' left wrist cock to inhibit CF from doing its thing by out turning everything inward. Better not stall though, through and past the ball, or the club will detach from you and there goes the wrist cock.

Hard thing to do, that is to maintain wrist cock because it doesn't make sense at first....takes some work for sure....but well worth it.

Now when Bradley is done grillin' maybe he'll be spreadin' some more juicy sauce just for your liking.

Hey festus,

Yes TGM hitting and what Bradley is teaching are different.

I was just trying to point out to some of the, shall we call them, naysayers, that there is such a thing as hitting. I just didn't know how to describe it to them. And thanks to, my friend from somewhere else, Drew, I now do.

Seriously, Drew is a great guy and very knowledgeable. He knows his stuff. And has helped me even though he probably doesn't realize it

Festus,Thanks for chimin in! While I am not doing Bradley's drills yet to learn exactly what he teaches I am trying to implement everything I can that I am learning from this forum and using others thoughts as well.

One of my biggest faults is stalling through the zone so I will work on that diligently. I still don't know how to implement the push/pull through the zone, however, I will remember it. and work on trying to implement some sort of it as I work on ground forces (foot work), not stalling and few other things I have learned so far.

Thanks again and keep your powder dry!

Great post Bradley! Any idea who the first, 3rd and 4th guys were? I recognize, Hogan, Littler and Roberto, but that 3rd guy had a Hogan like downswing (kind of) and the 4th guy had a Nelson type downswing, just wondering who they were. Ah - an Venturi also. Maybe #4 is Middlecoff?

I think the other guys were Souchak and January... Middlecoff and Venturi are correct

Talking about ground forces. It's a treat as an aussie to be checking all this baseball out.

I've noticed in those Ben Hogan preshot practice swings that he is stepping from the left to the right and back onto the left. I'm sure everyone's seen that footage. Also, the more weight I bring over the right leg on the backswing, the less the right knee/leg bends or bows outward . . . alot more stable and very similar in shape to the older golfing guys.

Some other footage I saw about baseball pitching mentions that the dropping of the arms starts the momentum forward . . . @Bradley, do you have any thoughts about the 'timing' of the gravity drop? ie. whilst the weight is still pretty much on the right leg? Is the free ride the END of the backswing (bringing the weight back down onto the left leg)or the BEGINNING of the downswing( after the left leg has replanted)? I know you're a fan of lifting the left heel on the b'swing . . . perhaps you've got some thoughts about the connection between the replanting of the weight back down the left v the free ride.

JesseV wrote:


I may have misunderstood the drill Bradley was performing but here is one post where he discusses forearm/wrist rotation.

This is where I feel the hands cause the rotation and I a beginning to think I should feel the forearm/wrist drive the rotation.[/quote]

What I see here is quite straight shoulder line at impact and hands and arms even bit at the left side of the body (yes those things go generally hand in hand) and by that need for forearm or arm rotation. More open and more left deltoid points toward the target, less rotation you can have in your arms to keep the face square.

wabi_sabi wrote:


Wabi
I like the replanting of the left foot because it builds up the vertical ground forces.
The free ride is pretty much the idea of not forcing the club down from the top by force.
When the two actions are combined then it becomes a much easier task to find the slot with a closed off upper body to be utilized into and through the strike.
Both actions then dictate the entire tempo of the swing. The better the ability of a player to do the correct things into the strike and beyond the quicker the tempo of the swing we see... think Hogan or Nick Price..
The player that isnt as effective with their pivot rotation and upper arm connections will have a slower looking tempo
Both also relate to the transition move in when and how we do it. It is all dependent on the caliber of the guns you have firing into and thru the strike as to the best way to approach it. This is a huge reason I teach the drills in a certain sequence so we work the swing from impact to post impact then back to transition and backswing options..... You can only load angles that you can sustain and release properly so we learn how to release and become spacially aware of how to enter impact from "the slot" before we can really worry about actually finding that slot.... You cant put the cart before the horse

In the midst of this discussion can u tell us whether the procees of achieving a flat left wrist is initiated by rolling the right arm (for R.Hs) or by rolling and bowing the left arm?