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John Schlee is a good example. he was a tall guy and had to do loads of knee flex. his clubs were what looks like standard length, at the time, to me and he didnt use flat clubs, probably standard lies at the time as well, and because of that he had to place his clubs toe way up even his irons which basically begs for making them flatter if you look at them but he got there that way thru lot of hard work and he accounted for it. i think that if somebody who had an eye for what he doing back then had him flatten his clubs that could have been very helpful to him during development of his swing.

Bradley Hughes wrote:

Hey Bradley:

Thanks for all your work and patience on this thread, I've been lurking on here for a while without saying much but I really appreciate all your insight as well as the responses from the other contributors.

I've been working on getting my delivery more from the inside and coming squarely into the hit as opposed to flipping through it and as I was thinking I had a question for you.

In my everyday tasks I'm right handed, I do all my normal tasks with my right hand. However, whenever I play sports (baseball, golf, hockey) I swing "left handed." So when I swing I actually feel like everything is happening with my right hand (lead hand) as opposed to my left (trail hand). have you ever noticed this causing any specific problem in the golf swing? I am not looking for anything too specific here (at least not yet), just wondering if you've noticed or can think of any possible negative tendencies.

Thanks,

Tyler.

@Tyler

If one hand is overpowering the other then that dominant hand can cause dramas as far as path and clubface alignments
That why in my drills we work BOTH hands early on in the piece....if we have two hands on the clubs we need to use them both.....so we work on the strength and form of both to enable us the best opportunity for control and for power
The lead hand has to be strong to control the clubface direction as that lead wrist more or less matches the clubface
The rear hand provides the majority of the whip or speed
If one is too dominant then the clubface is going to get moved around and altered in alignments, loft etc

Hogan said he wished for 'three right hands' BUT he also stated to hit as HARD with the left as you do with the right....HIT it hard with BOTH hands..... no mystery there as to what he was saying

BillB posted this photo in the Hogan pictures thread and noted at the bottom.... "Huge forearms for a guy 140 pounds"


The reason so many great golfers had quite large strong forearms is simple...they USED them when they swung the club

Hogan's weak grip promoted forearm rotation....and he HAD to hit hard with his hands, his forearms and his rotation of his torso to get that weak position squarely into the back of the ball
His weak grip just won't work for people that have poor rotation on either side of impact so many people get caught out there......until they gain the strength to do such a thing

Hogan also talked about pointing the elbows at the hips at address....again what he was doing was pinning his upper arms to his body to help avoid disconnection and promoting forearm rotation......he just turned his hands onto the grip and got his forearms ready to rotate

You have to earn this stuff though......that's why I make people do the impact drill for a long time so they can handle any of the loads they are going to start building in their swing before we move onto the other areas

As far as Hogan's lie angles as Cy was asking about....here is a little more thought.

From much reading and listening to Hogan interviews....he talked a LOT about trajectory. This would mean that in his mind he had most of 'it' down right where he wanted as far as direction.
As I have spoken about previously the flatter you can swing the LESS poor clubface alignments affect direction or dispersion...and...the more trajectory becomes affected
This was talked about by hitting drivers from your knees.....you will see the more the face is open at impact the ball goes higher but NOT as far right....and the more the face is shut at impact the ball goes lower and NOT as far left...... dispersion rates of ball direction and curvature is greatly limited with a flatter shallower swing.
So Hogan worked out any variances in his motion or twisting or torquing the shaft in a different manner when he swung at it....would mainly affect the trajectory and have less hindrance to his direction of intent.

Hogan quote from a book about the Harmon family
Once when practicing with Ben Hogan Claude Snr. asked Ben about swing plane. Mr. Hogan pointed his thumb down the range at the other players and said, "They keep trying to get their hands high, more upright, and I'm trying to get flatter all the time. As I get flat when I move into the ball with my left side, it drops me inside even flatter and I come from the inside every time without ever coming over the ball. The flatter I get the fatter my wallet gets."

Hogan understood all this from a biomechanical viewpoint of how connection works and how to limit the clubface from moving around.....and he set up his clubs to match

I have heard all types of 'guesses' at Hogan's equipment specs..... Jody Vasquez who says he shagged balls for Hogan says they were 1 degree flat and swungweight at D1, someone in another thread recently said he heard they were 5 flat....
Unless we have held them in our own hands the best 'evidence' we have is the club he used at Merion that is in USGA house. The club is a 1 iron which had an approx loft in that era of 20-21 degrees (which would make it a current day 3 iron by loft measurements)



We can see it flat on the table so can get a pretty qualified measurement- and it weighs in at 51 degrees
What is company standard today for a 3 iron lofted length club?.......59 degrees?? So what he was using there is approx 8 degrees flatter than what a standard club of today is....and of course people end up being fitted into clubs even more upright than that....so a person could be using a 3 iron that is 10-12 degrees different in lie angle to what Hogan used...and they wonder why they can't come remotely close to swinging it like Hogan!!!

Here is a letter response from Tom Wishon who held and measured some of Hogan's gear through a meeting with Hogan's club maker Gene Sheeley.......he again describes the clubs as FLAT and HEAVY!!!



And just for reference here is the specs of Tiger's clubs so you can see the variance when compared.... I find the setup of his driver interesting and would put an asterisk** right around that number as to why he has more trouble with the driver from the tee than he does with his fairway woods..... as a club gets longer it should get flatter.....his driver is 3 degrees more up than his other woods...makes no sense



Flatter lie angles-- The best kept secret in golf!!!!!!!!......

Faldo at his best.....butt of club nowhere near the plane line.....right arm bent and tight and supporting the club at impact..... shaft connected to the body centre right through the chi area near the belly button right where it started at address....

3 Masters and 3 British Opens in the modern era.....second only to Tiger Woods in majors won in the past 30 years......26 top 10 major finishes

Kris Tschetter in her book said that Ben Hogan driver was 'the heaviest ever measured by USGA'. he also played this joke on people hitting a few right down the center of the fairway and when people commented how good those shots were he would say 'its this driver, you cant hit it off line, give it a try' and then would laugh when everybody hit it dead right coz nobody could turn the damn thing over. USGA should have plenty of his clubs, it just seems that people who work there dont really care about all that.

Here is a great view of Hogan in a gif form.....slowed down to grab pretty much every frame possible from this swing....gives us a great look at things
My students who have completed the course ........see how many of the 5 drills you see....I count FIVE

Thanks, Bradley! For me, that's a great illustration of how Hogan's left shoulder "lagged" his left hip from the top of his BS to (past) the point of contact.

Bradley Hughes wrote:
Bradley, I have been working on drill 1 but not releasing the angle of the bent right wrist through and post impact and to me it feels you can control the club face with the right hand also. If you do that I don't see a conflict of interest between both hands. There would only be a problem if you allowed the right wrist to uncock through impact.

that 1 iron guesstimate is probably close enough. there seems to be no concrete numbers posted anywhere from any proper measurements that can be trusted. sometime ago i have asked Mr Burke about that and his response was "Hogan's clubs were heavy and flat. Mine were stock clubs..about a D2 ". interestingly its been also mentioned somewhere that Ben Hogan was often pissed off with MacGregor staff for not getting his specs right while Byron Nelson clubs were always as requested. this might be a bit far fetched but it kinda makes sense if those guys at MacGregor were getting 6-8 degrees flatter than standard spec they probably thought it was some kind of mistake while Nelson's specs were likely within acceptable limits but thats just my speculation really.

Anton,
I do not understand why nobody know what Ben Hogan's specs were on his clubs. The man owned a Fing golf club manufacturing company. He has clubs in museums. What in the heck is going on? This is a very basic simple question that nobody knows the answer too. Ben Hogan was the best ball striker on the planet and nobody knows his club specs...not even those who were in his inner circle...Guys have gone to look at his clubs and all we get is they were flat and heavy. Unreal.
Thanks,
Doug

Bradley,
This is an embarassment to the engineering profession. Nike has engineers making clubs for Woods and he is their crown jewel and they can't even get the basic engineering correct on his clubs. Best Player on the planet can't even get clubs fit for him so what are we going to get. I know who I am going to trust from now on. Me. We have to be our own doctors and now we have to be out own club fitters. Absolute outrage.
Thanks,
Doug
Bradley Hughes wrote:

I agree with Rock. Seems to me that I recall hearing that if you go in the locker room at Shady Oaks now, Hogan's locker is still there. It's covered with plexiglass but still has some of his old clubs standing in the locker. Also, I think the pro there has been there for about 30 years and knew Mr. Hogan well. I would guess that he had a pretty good idea of the specs on Mr. Hogan's clubs.

Ben

Doug, yeah its damn shame that nobody who can get access to his clubs can take proper measurements and share them for if nothing else but posterity sake. the only guy i would trust to know his exact preferred specs, and not some specs from clubs he tested or experimented with, was Gene Sheely and hes gone now. its funny you mention Nike as Tom Stites who heads Nike golf clubs R&D (or whatever his current title/position is) spent a few years working closely with both Sheely and Hogan while at Ben Hogan company and learned from both. Nike can certainly make clubs to any specs Tiger wants thats not a problem.

I made this Hogan video ages ago....shoddy editing because it was one of my first attempts at uploading etc to YouTube and didn't have the right programs to edit it well.....but has a bunch of swings of Hogan, some that you don't see on YouTube...cool song to suit the mood too....



This one may interest a few also as it has a good variety of different players such as Picard, Hagen, Guldahl, Demaret

Here are a couple of great pics of Slammin Sam

The left photo is an excellent one.....
It shows just how rotated the forearms are at this point in the golf swing.....you can visibly see it.....and it gives the clubhead the appearance of still being behind him in the 3rd dimension. You can see the shaft angled and club head pointing behind him into the distance.....no steep vertical shaft
The other great thing to see in this photo is the weight drive vertically down the right leg.... this is what gave the appearance of the 'Snead Squat".......the weight went down the right leg to keep his mass behind the ball and allow for that 3rd dimension club path from around and from the inside....BUT....the left knee moved left or forward/targetwards to counter balance this push down the right leg and separated the knees ....giving him the squat look of knee separation
But it is nothing more than pressuring down one side and the human instinct of not wanting to fall on your face counter balances on the other side

THEN....he is in the hitting position and all things start to unwind from there in the right photo
Forearms rotate to aid the pressuring of the club from inside for a square attack on the ball....left arm pinned to chest...right arm bent because of being sent under and inside with the vertical down and rotation range of motion in his forearms......right knee starts driving forward in unison with this.....right arm is still in near side as a result of that 3rd dimension laid off forearm open approach.....it's just all go go go because he has all the range of motion in the world to rotate utilizing the ground connection of the vertical move/push down from transition and then he starts moving from right to his left into and through the strike to a balanced finish with all parts still working together..

Sam was maybe not THE man....but One of them.... most PGA tour wins ever and I believe he won PGA events in 4 if not 5 different decades

Bradley Hughes wrote:


Look at his back of the left hand. It hasn't rotated even the left deltoid has turned almost 90 degrees between those two images. I agree that arms rotate, but they rotate with the body and not around their own axis. That's the way to keep the right elbow in and under.

Here is a different view of Snead......get a good look at what is moving from this view

Tapio and Bradley,
There are three ways for the forearms to appear to rotate as Sam is doing here...tri-planar (tranverse, coronal and sagital) body rotation, forearm rotation on its own axis (i.e. pronation and supination) , and shoulder joint rotation on its own axis (i.e. internal and external). If you study my 14 tables where I catalog the movements of the main human body joints in the golf swing, you will find what I believe is an optimum way to swing a golf club. You will have to get a little more detailed in your description of what Sam is doing from the slot to impact for me to understand what you are saying. For my simplified viewpoint of what I am seeing in these images, it looks primarily like body rotation to get from the slot to impact, but there is also some shoulder joint rotation as well as some forearm rotation...you can look at my tables that explain exactly how it is done...or you can offer another way which is fine...the key point is you must be able to explain the series of actual movements that he is doing if you want dirters to know for sure. As I said, telling someone to rotate the forearms can be done in three independent ways including a blending of all three. The human body is very complex and a marvel of biomechanical engineering and it is amazing how it blends very simple movements together in the beautiful way that Sam exhibits. It is possible to explain these simple movmements in a comprehensive way...not easy, but that is what needs to be done for us to agree on the facts of what Sam is doing...he did the same swing for his whole career and there is only one correct factual explanation...the truth is what we need to describe.
Thanks,
Rock
Tapio Santala wrote:

Nothing against your tables Rock, I just don't understand any of that stuff, but let me give you an example because your comments did not, I believe, include the elbow in relation to the overall intent of forearm rotation.

Look at it this way. Ever given blood from your right arm drawn by a lovely nurse? The first thing she will do is expose that soft elbow pocket toward the ceiling to expose a vein for a good poke. Next, the R elbow, or just below it, will be generally supported by the edge of a table, or something firm, perhaps even by cupping your L hand under your R elbow. Your R palm is now facing the ceiling. Now hold the R elbow location firmly with the left hand and rotate the forearm until the back of your R hand now faces the ceiling. The R elbow will stay locked and the feeling of the lower part of the arm rotating CCW gives a nice firm feel- which is the range of motion needed while keeping the R elbow from flying all over the place.

My nurse does this so well, and is so sexy doing it, I feel the need for a smoke afterward.

Festus,

External rotation of the right SHOULDER is what keeps the right humerus/elbow in tight to the torso, right?
How would you fix Doug's early release/flip?

mh

Yeah, it's a combination of level shoulder movement, and rotation of the forearm, and acceleration all in a nice tight pivot package. I was just trying to isolate on the range of motion of the forearm only, and the aggressive turn pins things even tighter. Again, not sure about the term 'external' rotation. I don't process in terms of internals, externals. But, if I understand the terms correctly, I would say the R shoulder is externally rotated ( back ) not limited to, transition...then coming out of P3 the front of the right shoulder is moving leftward, so I would call that internal movement ( forward ). Probably have that ass backward in terms of internal or external strictly speaking. There must be a better way to describe the functions instead of internal or external. Internal or external to what?

I can either pin my shoulders 'back' ( standing at attention ), or pin my shoulders 'forward' ( a shrug of the shoulders, only forward ). That's how I see and understand it- in simple terms.

Rock is on his own journey, so I am reluctant to address that question...but a good question.

Festus wrote:


External rotation of the right shoulder can be described so that in transition if everything else stays still, the right elbow moves toward the target line. So if the right shoulder is in ext.rot it's opposite to flying elbow. And of course everything is opposite at the left side of the body. Mirror image.

Blinded by science?