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Does anyone know if Mr. Elkington is playing a 38.5 in 3 iron and weak lofts?

Not sure. He has long arms, so maybe they are 38.5" (I believe "standard" is 39).

Either way, it doesn't matter. Everyone has their own length/lie/loft preference that works for them. Get your lie angle set so the ball goes straight...get the length adjusted so that lie angle fits your address posture...and get the lofts set so the clubs go the distances YOU like. If you want your 7-iron to go 165 on a normal swing, for example, then get the loft set to give you that.

Hogan himself would often carry two E-wedges. One was 48 degrees (strong for the day) and the other was 44 degrees (strong even today). He wanted two specific yardages out of the same club, essentially.

Anyway, the whole point is this: While it may be interesting to know what a Tour pro's specs are, they won't necessarily give YOU the edge unless you are built exactly the same and swing exactly the same. But what WILL give you the edge is going to a PGA Class A clubfitter who will spend time with you and watch your swing and your shot tendencies, and take the appropriate measurements and give you clubs that fit you like a glove. Then you can go out there with confidence that "These are my clubs. MINE ALL MINE!"

HERE IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ON THE CLUB QUESTION.

OPTIMAL GOLF RESULTS.

FLAT SOLE ON THE GROUND.

SHORTEN SHAFTS TRAVEL 3 TIMES FASTER THEN LONG SHAFTS. THEY CREATE 2 TIMES MORE FORCE THAN LONG SHAFTS AND HAVE 4 TIMES LESS STRAIN ON THE BODY.

I HOPE THIS HELPS...

LEE

PS. OPTIMUM DRIVER SET UP. 10.5 LOFT IS OPTIMUM FOR MAX DISTANCE. AND NO MORE THAN 43 LONG FOR MAX SPEED THAT A HUMAN BODY CAN MAKE. ALSO THE DISPERSION GOES TO ALMOST NADA. ALMOST BECAUSE THE BALLS ARE NOT ALL PERFECTLY ROUND AND NOT ALL THE GROUND IS FLAT.

Lee Comeaux wrote:


Optimal for who? Bubba Watson's driver is 6.75 degrees loft and 44.5 inches long..

Neil wrote:




jUST THINK HOW MUCH FURTHER HE WOULD HIT IT IF HE HAD IT SET UP OPTIMUM THOUGH. HE IS 2ND IN DRIVING DISTANCE AND 100TH IN ACCURACY. IF HE SWITCHED HE WOULD BE 1ST IN BOTH AND HIS DRIVING DISTANCE WOULD BE MORE THAN JUST 311 IT BE MORE LIKE 325 AVERAGE. HE HAS A GREAT LEFT ARM/PUSH SLAP. THOUGH.

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION THATS OPTIMUM FOR A HUMAN SO FOR EVERYONEIS THE ANSWER.

LEE

Lee Comeaux wrote:


Ok, I'm a little confused I think. Optimal for every human, is this an opinion?

#1 right now is JB Holmes. He's gaming an 8.5 degree and I know these guys have the resources to find optimal.

it is an opinion Neil, Lee just has very strong beliefs on certain equipment aspects and tends to generalize a little. the truth is all things being equal more length will give you more distance, thats just physics of it, anyone can argue them but the ball still falls when dropped regardless of that. problem is longer shafts are 1) harder to control ie they are more challenging to hit the ball on the square sweet spot at impact; 2) more weight which is not always the case but usually is because even with current materials the heavier the shaft the more stable it usually is and that goes back to help with (1); 3) more weight after some point will slow your swing speed down and thus negatively affect distance. so distance/dispersion challenge is this : to get the longest and heaviest shaft you can swing without losing speed and control. what that length and weight would be that unique for each individual. it can be argued that modern off the shelf drivers are way too long for people who buy them and i agree with that as i play shorter shafts myself. on the other side of it Jamie Sadlowski has 48.25 shaft, 6.5 loft and E3 swing weight, dunno what total club weight is, and this is probably his maxed out setup for good days because he has another driver that is shorter for control when he needs it.

Here is the deal I actually took the time over the last few years and tested my thought based on the ballistics of a golf ball and what is optimal. In fact YOU CANNOT hit it harder with a LONGER shaft because of the HUMAN SKELETAL SYATEM and the amount of STRAIN on the joints. As ANTON said is a PHYSICS THING. THE HUMAN BODY FEELS PHYSICS AND ITS CALLED PAIN. So when I say OPTIMAL I am not guessing at it I hit THOUSANDS of balls and PAYED ATTENTION to the total distance they each traveled. mY CLUBHEAD SPEED WENT FROM 124 TO 140. I PLAY BEST AT 132 MPH. i ALSO LET OTHERS TRY IT AND GUESS WHAT INCREASED CLUB HEAD SPEED. I also did something different I clocked my arm speed and its a huge amount faster with shorter shafts. STRAIN IS NOT POWER IF YOU THINK IT IS WELL ITS STRAIN OF THE BODY WHICH IN NO WAY HELPS HITTING A GOLF BALL.

NOW WHAT ARE ALL THE LAUNCH ANGLES OF ALL THESE GUYS DRIVERS. EVERYONE I WILL BET IS OVER 10.5 DEGREES. NOW EXPLAIN THE PHYSICS OF SOMETHING THATS 8.8 DEGREES LAUNCHING AT A HIGHER DEGREE. IF THE LAUNCH ANGLE AND THE FACE ANGLE ARE NOT THE SAME THEN THAT IS not optimal. Ask yourself this why then are the guys of today hitting it no further then the in the 60s and 70s.

Thats all I am trying to say add angle and you WONT HAVE TO CREATE ANGLE FLIP TO HIT IT FAR. THAT IS A FACT.

ANTON HOW DOES SOMETHING HEAVY MOVE SLOWER THEN SOMETHING LIGHT FIRST QUESTION AND AT WHAT POINT DOES LIGHT HAVE FAR LESS PSI IN THE BALL AS HEAVY.

THIS IS A FACT THE LIGHTER THE SHAFT THE WORSE YOU WILL HIT IT AND WILL NOT GAIN DISTANCE TO AMOUNT TO 5 YARDS. gRAPHITE SHAFTS AS A WHOLE ARE NOT OPTIMAL FOR LEVERAGE ANYWAY. STEEL WILL OUT PERFORM THEM ALL DAY.

THE SEARCH FOR DISTANCE IS OF ZERO VALUE IN THE GAME OF GOLF.


UNDERSTANDING WHAT A PROJECTILE CAN DO IS THE KEY TO THE ANSWER.


FRICTION AND GRAVITY TWO THINGS YOU CANNOT EVER CHANGE LONG SHAFTS AND LOW FACE ANGLES DO NOT FIT WITH EITHER.


LEE

Static loft alone is a very meaningless variable when it comes to impact.

Dynamic loft + angle of attack are what you need to consider.

Dynamic loft considers shaft influences (clubhead leading shaft into impact), Club head face angles open/closed effect on loft) which can be very large.\

There are few absolutes that will work optimally for everyone, though shorter is very helpful when it comes to being repeatable.

I like my drivers less than 44" and head heavy with a tip-stiff low torque shaft. I am comfortable trading distance for more consistency.

Shorter drivers with heavier heads I feel promote good center contact (Smash factor) and allow a more consistent attack angle.

Please elaborate. It seems to me with a shorter shafted driver, it would be necessary to exert more energy than a longer shafted driver to generate the same club head speed.

The whole speed of the outside vs the inside of a wheel deal.

Thanks.
Late-

Lee, let me try to explain it to you this way : if i took that 48.25 long heavy driver from Jamie Sadlowski i personally would hit it shorter than my current 44.75 because i lack the skill to square it and make solid contact and the length and weight are both beyond my ability. so unless i have a divine intervention two things are likely to happen : i'm gonna lose club head speed and smash factor ie how well that speed translates to ball speed at impact and less distance as result if i can find the ball afterwards that is. so is it true that i'm gonna lose distance with longer length like Sadlowski 48.25 ? yes it it true for me personally and for alot of other folks maybe too. is it true that Sadlowski gonna gain distance by switching to my 44.75 ? no it is not true. those guys optimize and squeeze for every bit of distance they can, he didnt just pick 48.25 at random or because some guy on the internet told him so, they spend time and optimize. are we talking about alot of distance difference here ? no, not alot. is it better for a game of golf score wise to trade that little difference for control ? yes, i believe it is. does any of this make sense to you ?!

problem is you make statements that you think are true for everyone and anyone out there. so in one thread you say everybody should adjust to this specific lie angle now you say everybody should also adjust to specific shaft length and specific loft in their drivers. i'm sorry but thats just nonsense no matter how much i like chatting to you or respect you. what you are forgetting is that alot of folks out there dont look like you, dont swing like you, dont have even remotely the same club head speed like you and even those who try might be very similar but not quite you. so why generalize everything and give equipment advise based on such generalizations ? or give advise to Bubba Watson on equipment ?! i mean seriously man, thats just totally off the wall. i'm not even going to get into steel vs graphite, suffice it to say there are graphite shafts now that have better characteristics than steel ever had or can possibly have.

anton wrote:




Anton my man you just hit the nail on the head right there and you of all people I thought would get this. Thats the golf industrie GENERALIZED. Thats what they call STANDARD LIE AND STANDARD LOFT. That is my point who set this standard and how come its changed 3 times in 40 years. The point was that the Golf world has went all over the place with lengths and lies and offsets. In the end NONE of it will help you play better if you actuallty think all that stuff matters. I figured If I just said what I did and the fact that I tested it that it was lets say fact someone would argue. They always do and again who cares if its right or wrong what I or anyone says. when you stand over it YOU HAVE TO KNOW THAT YOUR TOOLS ARE OPTIMUM FOR YOU TO HIT THE HOT NEEDED. Your also dead wrong about my ability there are others that now hit it the same as I do that have took the time to understand their own motion.

Anton here is a FACT FOR YOU.


worlds longest DRIVE who MIKE AUSTIN in competition play. Anything else dont count cause if you cannot do it in the heat of battle who cares. He did it with a steel shaft and wooden head. in fact here is a quote on it.
although the record recognized by Guinness Records as longest drive in a competition is 515 yards (471 m) by 64 year old Mike Austin in 1974 of the US National Seniors Open with a 43.5" steel shafted persimmon wood driver and balata ball

lets see persimmon head, 43.5 " steel shaft and balata ball.


MY QUESTION IS THIS IF YOU DONT GET IT BY NOW ANTON. WHERE ARE THE GOLF CLUB MAKERS TAKING YOU FORWARD OR BACKWARDS. THE FACT IS THE PASSED OPTIMAL SOME YEARS BACK AND NOW YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR SWING TO USE THERE CLUBS AND STILL NOT BE ANY LONGER THAN YOU WERE. SO BEFORE YOU MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE IM OFF THE WALL. DO YOUR HOMEWORK CAUSE BELIEVE ME I HAVE. OFF THE WALL IS TO THINK THE CLUBS OF TODAY ARE TO YOUR BENEFIT THEY ARE NOT THEY ARE TO THE BENEFIT OF STOCK HOLDERS NO ONE ELSE.

DID I MENTION HE WAS 64 BY THE WAY AND HIT IT WITH HIS RIGHT HAND AND ARM. FACT.


LEE

Lee, i'm not saying everybody should get the same industry standard clubs on the contrary it is you who are saying everybody should get standard clubs except the standard you advise is your own. Mike Austin isnt the longest drive. he hit that into tail wind estimated at ~27-35 mph and the distance was measured in steps to the green of that par 4 he overshoot. the guy was phenomenal but was he a great player ? probably the only reason the record isnt broken in competition officially yet is because nobody in their right mind would go for the next tee box instead of a green in competition but i dont think he expected that anyway. in any case he would be able to hit it farther with modern ball and equipment because long drive guys do, no tailwind and measured precisely and they are not one offs either.

anton wrote:


No the standard is not my own actually it is what I researched and found that A STUDY was done and that was the optimum for people. So I tested it for myself and just found it to be true for me thats all. Instead of taking their word I went out and put the thing to the test. They said that my clubhead and ball speed would increase and guess what it did. So I see no reason to say anything different. I just went with the understanding that ARM SPEED is more powerful than A BIGGER ARC or WIDER ARC. They were dead right for me it was and the other 3 guys that tried it. The longer the shaft the more of evrything a person needs to make it try to workout. If you have tried it and not found what you want then I will understand your thinking but if you have not personally tried it then how would you know if the concept is right or wrong. All Im saying is the ENGINEERING DATA IS NO DEPENDABLE this is something that I have found to be true. Engineering is a BEST GUESS.

Lee

Cool Lee,

It's obvious you're a beast and you found what works for you, you definitely smoke the ball. Your confidence and understanding of what's going on in your swing is pretty phenominal. You're a real sucsess story and it seems as though it's only just begun for you.

The point I was trying to make is that 10.5 degrees of loft is not optimal for everyone. Trackman don't lie and it's not "Engineered Data" It's $30,000 dopler radar.

Neil

Lee, its not some theoretical mambo-jambo engineering data. its not String Theory for crying out loud. players like Bubba Watson have direct access to any head they want any loft they want with any shaft they want at any length and weight and they do experiment with that to find what works best for them and have full backing of manufacturers R&D departments to make it happen but hey you know better what fits them well fair enough. its true that alot of folks would benefit from shorter shafts and more loft but that is generalization. telling people to go get 10.5 at 43 and its the best for them is misinformation. you do not know what loft and length would be the best for every single individual thats why fitting specialists exist. you cant pick me a pair of shoes either. since alot of folks on this site do listen to what you say think about it. and i do try various things and to tinker with equipment. here is another variable for you that does not fit generalizations. i choke down on all my clubs, similar to AK, so the length i play has to allow for that.

one more thing here. just wanna quote from Power Golf by Ben Hogan, my personal favorite instructional book, no engineering data there just the man talking :

"anytime i discuss clubs i'm always asked, how much does your driver weigh? how long is it?. that is because most golfing fans are interested in learning how to drive for distance. and for some reason they think that the secret of how tournament golfers get such tremendous distances off the tee must be wrapped up in their drivers. making any set rule on the length or weight of the driver for you to use without fitting it to your individual needs would be an error."

anton wrote:


GRAVITY AND FRICTION that predicts the ideal loft and length. also there is an angle in each of our bodies that tell you exactly what it is. The vast majority of people will be between 41 to 43.5 inches and 9.5 to 11.5 degrees. its not misinformation its information they can actually go out and use to see where there optimum is Starting them there is better than where they start now. Most will find that combination WORKS AND WORKS everyday and everytime. Lower lofts and longer shafts take away all your leverage and TALENT it then becomes a IF I GET LUCKY thing. So how can you say its misinformation because if what the EXPERTS said where true then you would not be here or there would be no sites like this where people are looking for better RESULTS.

Why do you choke down on your clubs are they to long? Also choking down on a club becomes a whole different type of HAND MOTION. The optimum distance for a ball out in front of your feet is the length of your arms for every club.


I hear exactly what you are saying Anton I do. But here is the thing and you just wrote this.

"its true that alot of folks would benefit from shorter shafts and more loft but that is generalization. telling people to go get 10.5 at 43 and its the best for them is misinformation".

You agree with me at the same time you say I should not say that. Well I am saying it and I will live with that, sometimes you have to pick a side and not play the fence. If that is a bad thing then I really dont care to play the fence. IF SHORTER CLUBS AND HIGHER LOFTS AS YOU EVEN SAY WOULD BENEFIT FOLKS THEN THEY NEED TO DO IT FOR THEIR BENEFIT THATS CALLED SHOOTING PEOPLE STARIGHT AND HELPING THEM." But instead the CLUB FITTER EXPERT fits them with one too long and their BACK or BODY pays the price, NOW WHAT IS THE BENEFIT FROM THAT. If you cannot hit a longer shaft good everytime then why keep trying to. Another thing is that if you cannot get the ball up why go with a lower LOFT. The whole concept is working against a person golf game.My advice is one of DO THIS BECAUSE ITS BETTER FOR YOU AND YOUR GOLF GAME. I never ever ever ever will tell someone to do it because it makes the ball go farther that I can careless about. Find the motion to move it solid everytime 43 inch driver at 10.5 degrees WILL DO THAT. That is great advice thats all. The fact that people do listen to what I have to say is why I say some things. Thats the point of saying them so hopefully maybe one or two will try it and benefit from it. I do not think that everyone does everything I write about come on be real. What I say I say because it will help them what you say you say because its not what you believe to be true. That is totally fine really but did ever think that even the R&D guys are wrong I DID. Never in my life did someone say if you shorten the shaft and add loft you will hit it better than you ever dreamed NEVER. I just to the advice of one guy BEN HOGAN thats all.


On the page 124 of "Ben Hogan's Five Lessons" Mr.Hogan states that his driver length is 43 inches, 2-iron is 38.5 inches, 5-iron is 37 inches and his wedge is 34.5 inches.

Guess what he was right. Now go figure that. I seriously doubt that you will say he did not know what he was doing. Why do you think he started making clubs? I SAY IT ALL THE TIME I JUST PAYED ATTENTION THATS ALL. Believe me Hogan could hit it as far as Bubba or anyone else.

:
Have a great weekend Anton and Im sure you will come back with something.

Lee

hey Lee, not interested. i'm definitely not learning anything from this argument and its clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about on equipment and fitting so it would be a waste of time for me to continue this.

In general, I think Lee is right. there is an epidemic of drivers that are too long for the average player expecially if they are six foot tall or shorter. Some bad marketing that started a few years ago is to blame. Think about it, most of the manufacturers sell 44 inch or longer drivers with 58 degreees of lie, 57 if you are lucky. For someone six foot or shorter that adds up to the freaking toe way higher than the heel at address to which the manufacturer and very well respected clubfitting "experts" say "Oh, that doesn't matter with the driver". Well thats just bull, of course it matters. The industry should at least crank out some heads with 55 or 56 degrees of lie with those 44 inch shafts so the general population of hackers can get a look at a driver that sets up somewhat neutral. 43 may be the number for the vast majority of humans simply from a rhythm point of view, and is worth trying. I have never seen anyone lose distance by experimenting with a half to full inch shorter. It seems like whatever you lose in centrifugal force you pick up from gravity.

Maybe you will get it one day MAYBE.

I'll say this much. I hit my old MacGregor Tourney (the one in my profile pic) REALLY FREAKING GOOD. It is either 42.5" or 43", can't remember. I've knocked that thing 320 before. And the dispersion is tighter than with either of my newer drivers.

You gotta hit the ball on the center of the face to hit it long and straight. It's easier to do that with a shorter shaft, for sure.

HE CAME UP WITH EM I JUST FOLLOWED HIS LEAD.

LEE

I have no idea what to think about this thread and the info submitted. How as a comsumer, are we to decifer what is absolutely true, best for everyone, optimal this, optimal that.

Well, last time I checked, I had half a brain left and the only logical thing to do is believe no-one and experiment for ones self what is best.

I will offer a few things I have noticed for myself from my limited experience. I can hit my sons junior clubs easier and farther than my clubs. I feel more extended and less jammed up with the shorter clubs. As far a shafts, graphite shafts cannot keep up with my hands, too much bend.

Some other simple facts might help also, a hammer won't swing easier, if it is too long, same with an ax. The hands can produce speed, but the xtra length in an implement needs a greater amount of torque to accelerate it and that will stress the hands to the extent of injury.

If I am not mistaken, Barry Bonds used one of the shortest bats, length wise, and we all know what he was able to do with that.

My point is, the swing and implement, in order to work , must allow for extention through the impact zone and must be able to respond to wishes of the hands. The hands must provide speed, power and accuracy to the shaft, instead of trying to control an out of control or unresponsive shaft.

Shorter, stiff steel shaftes and more loft is where I will start. Also, a shorter shaft allows you to get closer to the ball and that is always a good thing for me.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Lee Comeaux wrote:


hmm.. which data are the correct ones ?

I am with you Lee, that most ppl need shorter clubs, but i takes endless discussions and compare sessions with differed length until they accept that it could be better hit a shorter club.