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Hi all

Well I'm fast approaching 3 months since I bought Martin's video and I've been trying hard to grasp it. I'm hitting around 200+ balls a week, as well as swinging a club in various rooms in my house on a daily basis...which really goes down well with the wife! NOT

I have had flashes of getting it right which is why I've persevered with it for this long, but I hit an all time low last week in a society day out where off a 12 handicap (yes I've gone up 1) I shanked it virtually all the way round and only managed 15 points!

I feel sure that my problems stem from the top of the swing but I just don't know how to get the downwsing right in order to fix it. I've attached a photo of where I believe I want to be at the top (all comments welcome). The wrist is obviously cupped as it's a static position so that it could be captured with my phone, so the clubs momentum hasn't straightened the wrist yet.

In desperation I tried going 'the other way' and had some initial success, especially with the driver, but with my irons I often produced a hook shot and occasionally the dreaded shank. I also tried going the normal way with some occasional good shots but again I'm still plagued by too many shanks. For some reason at the top I don't feel like I've got enough room to get the lower half of my body out of the way on the way down and either pull hook or shank it.

So, the reason for this thread is to try and use the experience of those dirters that may have struggled with some or all of these issues and have managed to overcome them with drills, feelings or whatever, so that they are captured in one place so that I and anyone else can give them a try until something clicks. I'm absolutely desperate to get it!!!

If I get chance I'll also try and get some video done to try and give you a better idea of where I might be going wrong. Unfortunately it seems that the more traditional lesson approach works better for me rather than just watching videos. If any UK dirters live close enough and are willing to meet up for a range session (I'm based between York and Lincoln) then feel free to get in touch...slab of beer waiting!

Anyway thanks in advance.

A frustrated...Paul

It's very hard to know from a photo Paul but my guess is if you are taking the hands or handle of the club inside early and not moving your hips, doing the right hand wind up, continuing to wind back as you start to turn the other way in the downswing and so on that it is a problem of BALANCE. In other words if it isn't a problem in doing the technique you are going out on your toes at some point creating a big out to in clubhead path and creating shanks.

This could all start from an out of balance setup as well. Make sure your posture is a good comfortable distance from the ball and that you a steady on your feet between the balls and the heels.

Thanks for the response.

I do think that I'm starting to take it more inside earlier because previously I watched myself on tape and noticed the clubhead was starting back on an outside path. Fairly sure my hips and lower body are resisting etc so it may be a balance issue, but generally I don't feel as though I know what I'm supposed to be doing in transition and on the way down and don't feel like I've got room to move in...also don't quite know how we are supposed to keep the arms going back on the downswing, as surely this stops the club releasing = open face = possible shank (particularly if balance is an issue; although I'm not sure it is yet).

Regards

Paul

Paul,
Friends I have helped with the shanks have one of two problems...fyi, I am not an amateur golfer who plays for fun so just wanted you to know that.
1. They let their weight move onto their toes in the downswing.
2. They hold off the release so much in the transition that they don't release the club prior to impact.
It is hard to tell which of these you are doing...could be both. I would focus more on what you are doing in the downswing until you figure out what is happening. I would make sure the hands are dropping in transition and not going forward toward the target line...over the top move...which will effect your balance by getting your weight onto your toes...your body will not like that and your subconsious will keep you from falling on your head by trying to get your hands closer in causing a pull hook. Since you are hitting pull hooks, my initial diagnosis is that you are thowing your hands forward in transition...over the top move. It is hard to figure it out without seeing you shank a few. The other thing I would say is to focus on making sure your hands return to the same place they were at address...sounds obvious and easy, but a lot of things need to happen correct for it to happen. Please stop doing that as that makes for a miserable round of golf for you and nobody likes to see it or hear about it...but I have seen many shanks including some of my own so I know it is not fun...I watched a guy shank 100 shots in a row on the range and I went over to see if needed some help...kidding around with you. Good Luck and I hope you start finding the sweet spot soon.
Thanks,
Rock

Paul,
It took me a long while to figure out the twirl part coming down myself. The position that you are in in the picture seems fine, the key for me was keeping the back of the club heeded toward the ground. It seems that it will never square up from there, but it will. Two keys turn, don't slide, and learn how to hit the shot with the left arm only with the face wide open. This will teach you how it feels to square the club face with out trying to take the club forward.

Rock,
Your not an ameture that plays or fun? What happened you trying to go pro?

Thanks for the replies guys...will give it a try this weekend. If anyone else has any pearls of wisdom then feel free to share it!

Hey Paul,
I've had some shanking issues at times since going to this move also...along with occasional fats and pulls. What has REALLY helped me with all three of these is Martin's sit down drill. I am coming to the realization that, after all these years, I may have never really understood what a proper pivot was all about.
dave

Jason,
Typing too fast...wanted to get out the door to practice...but wanted to help Paul because I know it is not fun to shank it. I am an amateur who plays for fun. Want to be a pro, but still not willing to do what it take at this time. Making sure Paul knew I wasn't a golf pro who teaches for a living was the point...Martin is so he is the man on his move.
Thanks,
Rock

Paul, the club continuing to go back means you continue to twirl the hands as much as you can while turning left in the downswing. It creates even more torque and the club slings the way the Hogan downswing famously 'lays off'. It's not really a lay off it is a continuing of the twirl as the body turns the other way. When you can't twirl no more while still turning, the butt of the club will be roughly pointing at the ball and now you just release the clubhead right at the ball. Review the video again, it took me a while to understand it too. Once you get it you will know you know what they are saying. Simple when you know it sort of thing.

If you haven't got this move down you could be doing any number of things, many of which can kill a swing like coming over the top which can cause shanks. Learning this will not only give you the best next move after a good backswing, but will also remove awful moves if they exist.

If you are doing all this and still struggling then the problem is setup or balance.

And remember the main thing in the backswing is to start it by taking the HANDS/HANDLE of the club as inside as you can while resisting with the hips (don't try to open the face either). This is a great reference point or teacher for implementing the twirl in the actual swing to begin with.

Dave wrote:


Is there a video for the sit down drill? I keep hearing about it but I don't know what it is.

Hoganfan wrote:


I think it is the "Counterbalance in and out and up and down" video, but that is part of Martin's online program (which I had joined 2 months ago.)

Paul, it would be great if you could post a video. I'm not sure if you are experiencing hosel shanks or toe shanks (the latter is generally painful/shocking.) My experience is, if you don't get your hands down quickly enough (i.e. the "striking down" intent.) and you rotate _too_ quickly, the pivot won't be able to square the clubface since the left shoulder would be rotating away from the target line.

Again, that's one scenario; face-on or down-the-line video would help a lot. Just crank up the shutter speed so things aren't a big blur.

Hmm... or maybe you could bribe Martin into another UK tour

[ waiting for Martin in New Jersey! ]

Cany you shank it from out to in??...... heel and hozel getting there firsts from the inside....It happens to me when I dont dump it properly and my hands move closer to the ball coming to inside

Jason nailed the actual motion from there. Perhaps it would help you Paul to think of the drawing in the bunker that I did. We are aiming ahead of the ball with our body...therefore the ball is to our right....on our right side EXACTLY. Look at your picture...you are RIGHT on your RIGHT side....You can use it all from there. Read Jason's post again and mine and put those two together.

Thanks guys...I'll try and put two and two together! Love this site!!

Just for information, the ball is definitely coming off the heel not the toe.

Like that idea suggesting Martin coming back to the UK...perhaps he could tie it in with Australia's trip over to play cricket in the Ashes?

Having read Jason and Martin's posts something it seems to make sense. Last night at the range after varying results (some good, some bad) I finished off with about 10 three quarter length backswing gap wedge shots to a flag about 70 yards away. I tried the normal inside and twirl up to that position and then just swung down. It really felt as though the club face was open all the way down and I was a little scared of shanking it again but the results were great. First two shots pitched about 2 or 3 feet from the flag and the rest were probably between 3 and 12 feet...I'd take that every time!

Hopefully I can repeat that on full shots using your advice and try to create that feel again. Will keep you posted on how it goes this weekend.

Cheers

Paul

I had been struggling recently and could not figure out why it went from really good to really bad in a couple of days.......i continued to struggle for a week and then for what ever reason It just hit me that I had let my stance get very wide. When I narrowed it up a bit it became much easier to roll it up and contain it on the down swing. For what ever reason when I get to wide, the clubhead seems to get way out side and I flip it over the top on the way down...... Maybe this is just me but maybe it will help if someone else is having problems

If getting too wide makes you move too far left and not stay behind the ball you will be forced to bring it more from the outside to get ball first contact and or thrust your right arm straight.

You want to be AIMED in front of it but stay behind it.

hi martin...i did purchase the video and my question is how important is it to keep my left arm straight because due to my lack of flexibility i find i lose rythym and freedom if i have any stiffness in my arms?? also after i roll up the right arm do i make any conscious move with my lower body cause when i see elk swing at that clinic part 2 his lower body seems so quiet and stable ?? thanks for any input......steven here in california...any plans to come out here again for clinics?

You want to continue the twirl all the way through the downswing and the club will feel like it falls out of the back of the right hand.

Ok, I'm trying to do the move. I bought the video and find it quite interesting. I feel like I'm pounding the driver although I can hit a nasty pull hook and occasionally just block one dead right. Short irons feel pretty good. Hitting a smooth PW 130 Here is video.my girlfriend took when I was demoing a Callaway driver in Vegas. Any comments? Does it look like I'm getting the move in there? Martin?

Tom
Judging by the behaviour of the left arm through the ball and the foloowthrough I would say that you are pulling or driving left toward the target with your body. The backswing looks good to me. I think if in transition you allow momentum to take you left then stabilize that lateral motion and purely rotate, you will find that you don't need to square it up. The pull hooks and the odd block are due to this issue.

Does a left arm with some bend in it at the top of the backswing pose problems? My clubface is also slightly shut so I'm not sure if I'm rolling the club up correctly after the initial "in" move.

Martin Ayers wrote:


Good stuff right here.

You're moving your hips towards the ball instead of the target too. Probably a posture issue which can make rotating difficult.

Michael Egan wrote:

As long as your left arm is following the club all the way to the top with freedom in the left shoulder/armpit having a slightly bent left arm is fine. If it is bending because you are catching your left pec/armpit with the left arm and your hands keep traveling I would say it's an issue you want to address.

kevin wrote:

Moving your hips deliberately toward the target also retards rotation. Ideally you will begin to stabilize ANY lateral motion while the hands are still yet to drop. If you continue to chase laterally your left arm will be forced to drop too abruptly and this will make it imperative that you begin to throw the clubhead OUT to get the sweetspot on the ball to avoid hitting it fat. Obviously sending the hips at the ball is the worse mistake of these two, but I don't want to appear to be advocating the lesser of two evils.