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Thanks Guys

I think I found something that works for me. Im one of those people that when I hear what the end result is, I just follow it backwards and figure it out. Sounds weird I know, but we all learn differently. All im doing is setting up with my body in the forward intent and keeping it there. I just free swing it back and hold off the toe from turning over when I make contact and past. Im really nailing it...I even flew a green today on a par 4 that was 263 yards...Not bad when our season is almost over and it is only 50 degrees out.

Does this sound kinda like the swing in a nutshell?

I practiced the twirl for over a month and now im more or less freewheeling it with a few basic intents. Forward intent with my body, and not letting the toe turn over. PS>>works 100% with the hardest tour strker pro.

Thanks All
Chris

Post a vid if you can, that sounds pretty much it. The more resistance built in the longer and straighter is gets.

Chris...funny you should say that about the way you learn. I'm similar and I also learn far better from observation than any other way.
I started with the end in mind myself. I had watched Ben Hogan's swing a ton and came up with a plan, a goal for myself from that.

I wanted a swing that could hit any Golf shot needed on the course. I wanted to do this with one intent, one action in one direction, with one thing (all of me)....ONCE. That's what I got from Hogan footage. I could care less about the minutiae so often discussed as the secret of this or that. To me he looked like he was ultra precise in pointing his action somewhere....took every care in the world to do that and get himself ready.....then let it do it's thing. That's not to say he was a passive observer of it....just that he knew what was coming in terms of energy input and output so was prepared for ALL of it.

The only way you can do that is to understand a) what ignites the motion, b) what one direction is the action working in and c) How long does it take to happen in totality.

So...that's the long answer to the short question you posed.
"Does this sound kinda like the swing in a nutshell?"
Answer is yes.

The best thing you can do from here is to absolutely know that this swing you have going now is all you need to play great Golf. If you understand how to point it, if you understand how you can vary the power without changing the essence of that motion, then why would you ever think your swing was the issue again?

There are things in this game way more complicated and intricate than the swing....fortunately we are all equipped to handle those things also if we pay attention to the GAME. Read Geoff Mangum's latest blog post....it will help. I got to spend 3 days earlier this year observing Mangum and Elk work through things on the greens. I think it had a very positive effect on my own teaching.

Thanks Martin And Fellow Dirters:

I will continue to play by feel, and for me keeping the face open with a forward intent really really works. I loved your video, and thought it was first class. But for some of us, getting tied up in the how's and why's can be a killer. So I just go to the end result, maybe I have ADHD..not sure..haha. Anyway, real quick. ..My buddy bought this video and he is a big fader and slicer of the ball for years on end. Would you recommend the alternate method for him? or use the open face method? Just some feedback if you can.

Oh and by the way, one of the best ways to learn is by starting close to the green first. If you can pitch the ball successfully using this method. You have the motion down....start off slowly. Sometimes full swings changing to any method can be devastating. Even small chip shots with your hands ahead and no release is a good drill as well. Anytime you flip bad things can happen, pulls/pushes/slices/duck hooks..etc. Using the backswing move and just thinking about a open face at impact does it for me. Diz's video is great about the twist feel, unfortunately trying to hit the ball with the back of the clubface at impact is really really hard to do for some. The weird thing is I did it after 3 shots. This is a great feel for not coming over the top though..which I will definately pass on to others.

Keep up the great work.. I will keep any questions coming. Im a big time practicer and thinker.

Keep Swinging

Chris

Yeah, I don't know where Diz gets all these crazy ideas from.

Hi Martin,

I am posting this in hopes it will help others. Please clarify if needed as I do not want to lead anyone astray.

Since you worked with me in your summer Chicago clinic I think all the pieces have finally come together. If you remember the one piece I struggled with was continuing to work the shaft left after impact and as such would start to get into a habit of consciously trying to square the club with my hands at impact.

The critical element for me was making certain I was moving over the ball some as the club is moving in on the backswing - I believe you term this getting tall to the ball or expanding through the top of your spine. The movement toward the ball is very small but like all things new in the golf swing an inch feels like a mile. I think movement toward the ball serves two purposes. one, it counterbalances the in move on the backswing allowing you to maintain the left side resistance and stay on top of the ball. two, it makes it easier to transition into the limbo move coming down (the downswing counterbalance) thus making it easier to work the shaft left post impact. There is a Wayne Defrancesco video on Youtube of Hogan that I believe gives a good demonstration of this movement over the ball:

For me this counterbalance in move becomes very critical when you want to put a lot of energy into the in move to hit the ball hard.

Thanks again!

Well put Stan

Hi Martin

Truly awesome results already with your and everyone's methods!

I just watched half your video and raced down the range before it closed as I have 11 month old twin boys.

Wow, wow, wow...

I knew instantly you are 100% on the money before I got there and I found, after about five shots, I began smashing shots for the first time. Couldn't see how far because of the night lights but my pitching wedge was consistently 15 meters further and kind of effortless.

I haven't been playing any golf for the past four years but I began at the range two months ago. I've had 3 rounds of golf so far and found you guys last week and started incorporating stevan1 stuff a week ago.

Last Sunday I got a leave pass for 9 holes. It was raining sideways with a howling wind down on the sand belt here in Melbourne. Normally I'd give it a miss but my times is very limited. I shot 7 over, hit 5 greens in regulation and felt great thanks to you guys.

I can't wait to incorporate your twirl next weekend, if I can get away again.

Keep up the great work.

I am very open to your thinking and concepts here as I spent 17 seasons teaching skiers and ski racers a similar system. I taught them how to build power and release it on each and every turn using internal torques. There are six essentials we teach and one of them we call counteracting.

Counteracting is where the upper body turns against the directions of the feet (and skis) to build power and control. By mastering our 6 essentials every days was a great day skiing or racing. And I can see the same opportunity here.

So when I stand at address now, all I do is make my skiing counteracting move!

I do this by...

By internally torquing my upper body with intention to the target area and giving permission to my feet and lower body to simply counteract these forces.

The key is identifying any unnecessary old muscle that are tight for no reason and letting them go!

I'd get my ski clients to reset things internally... like resetting a computer and starting 100% over again with a fresh slate.

Because what I found was the only things holding back you progress (with my ski clients) are muscles that are trying to 'help' but they are closed off or trying to grip onto something that doesn't exist.

My clients got the most success and the fastest improvements by identifying these and letting them go... I have techniques for these if anyone is interested.

Back to golf...

I find building from the top down works best as it did in skiing because only the feet are anchored. So the only way to apply forces to the feet is by allowing them permission to resist other forces higher up the kinetic chain.

Counteracting is what I am using in my skiing photo, it may not look like much, because there isn't a lot in the photo, and that's because it towards the end of the turn so there is much less pressure from the snow to deal with... higher up the turn just after the fall line is where there is the most pressure which require the most counteracting... not shown in this photo.

I had so much time on skis and working with this, I got to identify what muscles were firing when, so I could can break it down to that level for those skiers that wanted in that detail.

Years ago when I went for a golf lessons they were showing me a move and i started asking them about what muscles were firing and what was torquing and they had no concept of what i meant.

So I am delighted to have found you, I sways knew golf could be a lot easier than the traditional way I was taught.

So I'll get back to watching the rest of your video and digest it all.

And keep you updated with results.

All the bst

Stoney
www.askstoney.com

Stoney...mate thanks for posting.

Intrigued by what you said here....
"I find building from the top down works best as it did in skiing because only the feet are anchored. So the only way to apply forces to the feet is by allowing them permission to resist other forces higher up the kinetic chain."

This is exactly the way I see it...and it speaks to me in the same way that this Hogan quote from 5 lessons does...


Also this....
"Because what I found was the only things holding back you progress (with my ski clients) are muscles that are trying to 'help' but they are closed off or trying to grip onto something that doesn't exist. "
...... is a fantastic explanation. Brilliant.

I have sat here now and thought about skiing (I did it once when I was about 12 and was every bit as successful as my one time ice skating..that is not very), if I think about it when the skier turns....nothing get's outside the outside edge of the outside ski? The skier is not turning down the hill in the direction he/she is going but rather turning away from that outside edge to transfer as much energy to it as possible. I see the same balance requirement in golf in that you need to stay up the hill to go down it the most efficient. Does that resonate with you?

Hi Martin

What you said above here resonates 100% because you are spot on with your thoughts...

"nothing get's outside the outside edge of the outside ski?" - exactly... because there are several forces that you have to mange in skiing. these forces are also how you can stay upright and in a super powerful position even at extreme inside body angles, and the cool thing is you don't have to worry about any of that because...

The focus is on setting up a strong platform of balance from the feet (because that's all you can do - as that's all that is connected to the earth - and there isn't time to worry about too much else) and so then to manage all of these forces (gravity, centrifugal etc..) you 'simply' counteract and counter balance - by turning against the forces to manage them as they come on - and they do come on!!

And by managing the forces in this way - you are in control of your world! - you can allow them to build or not build and you decide where and when you let them go for best results...

And you hit another home run here with your comment...

"The skier is not turning down the hill in the direction he/she is going but rather turning away from that outside edge to transfer as much energy to it as possible. I see the same balance requirement in golf in that you need to stay up the hill to go down it the most efficient."

Exactly right...

No surprise that skiing wasn't a great first experience for you because only around 20% of skiers natural alignment (their bone structure) sets them up to ride a flat ski. And you need to be able to ride a flat ski so you can release the pressures at the end of every single turn.

If you don't have a flat ski set up, it's impossible to release the pressure via relaxing your muscles (which is by far the most efficient and consistent way of releasing the pressure) because you brain will always override things when it's not confident of your balance platform. Because the brain's primary overriding function is to keep you in balance.

So for the 80% of clients not aligned - we custom fitted everything after having videoed clients on the snow skiing and doing a full indoor assessment on their feet to determine what they needed to have them standing comfortably in an athletic stance that maximized their balance and mobility.

They we would build up their ski equipment to meet their needs.

We always start everything with the end in mind.

We would select, socks (yes socks), build custom footbeds, ski boots, and them modify everything (boot, boot board and ramp angles etc) so when the client stood on snow their feet were relaxed in an athletic posture and their skis were flat.

This way muscles that had always been locked (for sometimes 20 - 50 years) that were trying to find a way to 'grip' to desperately maintain balance (that was never there) could finally relax...

Kind of like how you get your clubs custom made and then work on your game and keep refining.

Once the client had a level playing field in the abilitly to relax on a flat ski, we would coach them over a week or several weeks identifying compensatory movements and compensatory muscles 'grips' or that were locked that they could now de-tune and let go of.

By doing this they got amazing results...

We started everything with the end in mind, and effortless release on each and every turn...

Just like a golf swing...

And we would work our butts off to set thing up so it was effortless...

And guess what?

You couldn't pick what we were doing!!

Because it's not obvious at all, it just looks like you are skiing with incredible power effortlessly. Until it's explained to you what's required.

And that's when the fun begins...

I forgot to mention...

Occasionally we would work with skier who was also a golfer and they would ask us to make them the same kind of level platform for the golf shoe.

So we would build them a platform were both feet were in a 100% relaxed neutral athletic stance...

The last person I know of we did, shaved five stokes off his handicap straight away... because suddenly they had all this extra feel and balance through their feet.

We call this the ability for the legs to be in co-contraction...

Where both sides of the muscles are balanced, instead of one side having to pull or push more that the other just to maintain regular balance.

If it's not being done already in golf, I expect there will be a big interest in offering this opportunity to golfers too...

Stoney
www.askstoney.com

Thanks Martin!

I have watched you on youtube for quite a while and was able to use the bow/crossbow concept and hit some great golf shots but I was very inconsistent. I purchased TMPMIG download and everything changed. My ball striking was much more consistent and I have been enjoying the game much more. I still struggled with the take away and found myself twirling with the wrist instead of the forearms and this seemed to cause me alot of problems. When I made the adjustment to concentrating on my right forearm instead of the wrist I played much better. After seeing your new video post with Dave and Tom, the idea of pulling the shaft straight out of the clubhead to start the swing has made the twirl feel almost automatic and the results are nothing short of amazing. My question relates to a post here about two pages back where John NZ said that he started the twirl with a clockwise rotation of the left wrist and the right arm just follows. The Dave and Tom video part 1 talks about the equal and opposite pressure from the twirling of the right arm and simultaneously using the three fingers of the left hand to align with the right forearm. Can you accomplish this containment by initiating the twirl advocated by John NZ. Thanks for all your help! I feel like I'm right on the verge of my biggest golfing breakthrough.

Great stuff mate.
The great thing....and the easy thing about Golf....is that these forces are presenting themselves in a very similar way each swing. So we get to know them, and we get to learn the 'dance' steps we need from the very start to the very finish. This is why I believe in teaching set up and backswing as it can begin a chain action that can be 'learned' to be managed. There is of course different situations we face on the course that present different challenges, like uneven lies and as the clubs get longer the forces increase etc....but again, if you are 'ready' for it, you can counter these forces effectively.

Marty Widenhouse wrote:

You certainly can, provided you have the containment built in at address and don't lose it....it should only ever increase. The club will finally undo the containment...but you need never do this.

Hi Martin,

I have been a student of the game for many years and read many books and looked at some alternative techniques too....nothing come close to your work Mate, you nailed it!!! I have always been a reasonable ball striker...however this has change my ball flight and efficiency of my swing...it is such easy power and loads of it too..

There was a book by Gerry Hogan a few years ago that had some elements of your thinking but was far from complete and rather vague.

The Cloud has definately been lift on how to generate consistent and accurate power onto the ball. There was a fair amount of material to absorb and reprogramming of the brain to do...but after only a couple of sessions on the range. I have never been so consistent and powerful with the delivery of the club onto the ball...THANKYOU!!! I found doing the drills vital in getting the right feel and movement patterns although as you say they were rather abstract to start if with. I can't stress how important those drills you have invented were important, as it makes the actual swing pretty easy after that...your video needs to be viewed over and over again too as the are many items to work on...

Great video Love the Sling!!!!


.

Jeffrey wrote:



have to agree.. ur right he nailed it ,almost scary how u can go to your power source like junior golf days and not be scared the club will slam out underneath.... its like cheating when all it can do is slam out flush on the sweetspot...

diz

To original question. Everything starts to work better and better every day. It takes bit time to deeply understand (like I like to do always) but for the moment I wonder how it took so long to find so obvious thing. It has been at front of Our eyes for decades...

Tapio Santala wrote:

I'll also answer the original question....
As someone who has changed their swing 100 times in 15 years, for me what this has given me is something that I have done every day for about 2 years, I don't change it...I just get better. I could never go back to turning away from the ball in a circle and turning through it in the opposite way to the backswing. That would 'now' feel wholly unnatural.

@Jeffrey
Thanks for the comments, I'm glad you stuck with it....you wont lose it from here, and you'll never want to give it up.

@Diz
Likewise.

Count me in!

HI All,

I found sme great footage of Booby Jones...notice the clubhead and hands at takeaway and the wrist cup at the top of the swing ie the sling....

Everything you needed to know was known by Bobby Jones....Great action

I think you all start to know I'm honest and straight guy, so I have to say this also.

When I first saw Martin talking about that move and the video, I thought that one nut again telling us crazy things And to be still honest, until few days ago I only took few parts of that move to my teaching and made my own modifications. Parts I took was right elbow point in all the time to the ball (I think it was not even said there) and continue that rotation in my arms triangle all the way through.

I really skipped the bsw part of the right hand, because I saw the other way easier and to get the same result.

I was wrong once again. And I love to be wrong, because that's the only way to get better.

Tapio
I read a quote once...and this may not be the exact quote, but it was along these lines...

"An expert is someone who has made the most mistakes in a narrow field"

I consider myself one of the foremost experts on the Golf swing, precisely because I have made the possibly the most mistakes and therefore know just how many ways you can jack it up.

In the 5th lesson, Hogan summarized the previous 4 lessons in reverse order, and the gist of it was that you could do ....this, this and this...provided you had done this, this and this.

I'm looking forward to continuing dialogue with you, and would love to get a look at what it is you do with the 4D stuff in Finland.

Most of all I admire your willingness to be open to things. You have tools at your disposal that many instructors would love to have.....and many of them would feel that the technology rules all. The fact that you still look at the great swings of the past for inspiration will serve you well when utilizing that technology.

Hey Martin And Friends

Love this move..Anyway..one golfer to look at that really established a forward intent was Ben Crenshaw..(Circa 1996 and earlier swings). From the behind view, he always setup and maintained that forward intent. As a golfer, he was pure, as a person..(Who I met)..a real SOB at times..very high on himself..and not much for people below him. Having the chance to work at a few pro tournaments this is the attitude of alot of pros. Their ego's are as abig as a house. One time the great Sam Snead came to South Bend Indiana, and was waiting at the airport to be picked up. They told him they are sending a cab, he commented...either you get me a limo, or im going home. "I dont ride in em Cabs" is what he said. The whole time he played in a 2 day event he complained and whined about everything. From the condition of the course (Which Wasn't good enough for him), All the way to the food, which he supposedly sent his lunch back 3 times for not being cooked to his specs. We worked so hard to make everything good enough for him, anyone else wouldve been thrilled.

Also, Martin: Ive heard Elk discuss various times the secret or gem of the right forearm. He mentioned setting up with the right forearm that prevents it from ever breaking down thru impact. It allows you to hit with the back of the left wrist forward. What is this move or thinking exactly?

Chris Peterich wrote: